This topic is about rape

[Chun Liroy]

Doom killed people in 1993

[Brill Weave]

JIMMIES RUSTLED!!!!!!

[Chun Liroy]

Is Sera like the opposite of Olivia from SVU?

[isladar]

Characters in any kind of medium are going to be exceptional in some form or fashion. Very few stories pull off the "totally normal, unassuming person living out normal, unassuming lives" arc well, and even those are hopefully portraying their protagonists in such a way as to showcase the depth of experience found even in the banal.

You're obviously not conflating being an orphan with being sexual assaulted, but the example does bring up an issue: if those topics are used to effect the same result, what purpose does sexual assault in particular serve? Why is it an acceptable means of characterizing women? The argument I'm going for is that using sexual assault as a character background or experience is done almost exclusively for female characters; what does this add? What is the audience to take away from this? My point earlier was not to strip out humanizing motivations in characters, only to illustrate that sexual assault is being used against female characters in a way that is entirely unnecessary.

Edit: "Don't qualifiers kind of always go into the origin story though?"

My point was about male-specific (i.e., sexual assault against women as by-and-for males) context / qualifiers.

[Ryko]

I asked this before elsewhere, and admittedly I wish I had gotten more of an answer.

Assuming these couple of things
1) That there's always another option than alluding to sexual assault
and
2) There's no point in avoiding the subject entirely.

In what context does presenting it as a subject (in video games) become an understandable thing? It really strikes me as a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Now the answer I got was "well it shouldnt be in an action game" and I immediately disagreed with that, if only because limiting topicality to genre is putting a stipulation on a medium that doesn't need to exist. I did make a joke about the lack of prison rape's presence in games, but would that be the first step? I mean you're kind of stepping in it one way or the other. In what scenario does touching upon the subject become acceptable, and what type of response would be deemed the most appropriate?

http://i48.tinypic.com/j5xuab.png

[shepardG]

I feel like I sort of understand the arguments... And I think that's it.

I sorta wanna contribute but typing on my iPhone blows.

I'll hold my thoughts till I get home.

[Ryko]

My point was about male-specific (i.e., sexual assault against women as by-and-for males) context / qualifiers.

That said, I do understand that in this case it's the specific male context of said qualifier

Yeah, I specifically don't really have an answer for that. I admitted a number of times that due to circumstance, no matter how much I can try to think from another person's point of view, all I can really do is ask questions to glean more into a woman's viewpoint.

[Chun Liroy]

Not saying it matters at all in this discussion, but serious question: Wasn't there a comic book hero who was raped/molested that was male? I coulda sworn there was one but I could be wrong.

[Ryko]

Yeah I'm specifically avoiding the gender inequality argument because it's fallacious at its very best. To answer your question: Likely.

[isladar]

It's tricky (touchy??), which is why I've tried to use "sexual assault" as a thing and then talk about it's use in particular against female characters. Certainly not limiting the discussion, obviously men are victims to that kind of trauma, but it would be a gross exception to portray it in media (i.e., it would be the entire point), whereas female experience of sexual assault is almost considered de rigueur.

[shepardG]

There's been some instances leeroi, but never to the extent of how the instances are depicted for females, like most cases are sudo implied, for the males: Bruce banner was almost raped at a YMCA, it was implied that night wing was raped by tarantula. They never quite flat out happen, I guess is what I'm trying to say. And oddly enough, usually never involve a women rolling up to kick ass afterwards, to avenge their mans butt hole.

[Ryko]

Yeah, that's kind of where I'm stumped. I don't particularly get how one can bring up the subject in a video game and not have it be lambasted regardless of the character's response. Other media has done it in many different ways. From Karmic and Law-based justice (Sublime's Date Rape), to retaliatory empowerment (Girl with the Dragon Tattoo), to fending off a would-be attacker (this is a terrible example I know, but the boondocks if the first thing that came to mind), to flat out repression (Ms. Marvel's fiasco in Avengers and Justice League: Identity Crisis come to mind).

Hell, Ms. Marvel's rape fiasco eventually came back years later and she was flat out pissed about the first reaction (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vide...Ms-Take-Part-2). It has been handled in many lights and across many genres, from action, to suspense, to drama, to comedy. So yeah, that's why I ask questions.

[shepardG]

Oddly enough, I found a comic called "the rapeman", Japanese of course. Fucking shit our world is weird as fuck.

[Chun Liroy]

Look, I said it had nothing to do with this argument, just the argument reminded me that it happened and all I wanted to know was if it had happened or I mis-remembered. Thanks.

[shepardG]

Some times isla says words and I feel like a charlatan.

[shepardG]

Charlatan=some one who doesn't know what was just said.

[isladar]

My point with "there's always another option to alluding to sexual assault" is a comment more on how sexual assault is used. If sexual assault is used like being an orphan, or to illustrate female strength, then yes, it's useless, unnecessary, and for fucks' sake use something else. I'm wary of laying down "if-then" circumstances where portrayal of sexual assault is contextually appropriate, since that is problematic in and of itself. However, let me say this: sexual assault cannot be used to characterize. I feel confident in saying that no decent human being would look at a victim of assault and decide that that experience "defines them". That's monstrous, so what purpose does it serve in portraying that in media?

I don't know the answer about how the topic could be addressed. I definitely don't think the discussion should be framed in terms of you wouldn't know, you're [x]; with the 1-in-4 statistic you've either experienced sexual assault or are closely related / intimate / friends / are talking with someone who has been sexually assaulted. Maybe it's something that could be addressed directly. What I do know is that it absolutely cannot be a hand-wave addition to characterization.

[Ryko]

So wouldn't that be the fault of most mediums, and not just video games? I mean if an event happens that doesn't characterize, isn't it just random happenstance? Wouldn't it be even more jarring if we were in the middle of the tomb raider story and then it just popped in with "oh, and then she gets raped. Moving on..."?

Not making a direct comparison, just using the orphan thing as an example again. Kick-Ass specifically went about it this way "Yeah my mom died, but it doesn't mean anything."

[Ikarys]

Don't qualifiers kind of always go into the origin story though? Sticking with the topic of comics, couldn't one make the same argument that they'd like to see a character that was strong and reliable for any reason other than they're orphans? And for those characters that actually do lack that sort of scenario in their backstory, how well have they actually held up over time?

I think you are correct, which is what gives the issue even more gravity. These characters (Captain America, Iron Man) didn't start with a tremendously fleshed out backstory; they existed with multiple different accounts of origin, and over time, those have turned into very long and developed mythologies for each character. Lara Croft has had so many iterations, so much back story; but instead of attempting to develop an emotional context for the character over time, the suspension of disbelief doesn't get any thicker than "here's a violent situation in real life; now, start projecting your feelings about this situation on to the character."

Iron Man and Batman are particularly great examples because they have been the subject of action movies (which share a lot of audience demographic, subject matter, and story content with video games); they have been represented well by script and actor, and turned from two-dimensional into figures with tremendous heroic justification. The same resources exist, not just in movies but in video games, to make strong female characters, and they just aren't there. The female characters aren't being done a service, and while I can't speak for the rationale of movie / game writers, it often appears that the audience will be asked to "deal" with suspension of disbelief for a female character because she is hot / accessible / easy to project onto.

Even without the element of sexual assault, I felt like the new Tomb Raider was sexist. You want to know what irked me the most? It isn't even the blatant loss-of-power for the character, but her completely spineless fumbling through the whole thing, grunting, moaning and squeaking the whole way. Despite the player's ability to actually perform the actions necessary for Lara to survive, the trailer gives no indication that Lara has the capacity - she's practically a puppet. There is scarcely a character there to begin with, and that is what makes it sad to me; no internal narrative, minimal reflection or illustration of character.

[Ryko]

I guess what I'm asking is if there's really a hidden third category between defining and non-defining moments.