This topic is about rape

[Sera]

But Chari, I feel like that is how people are reacting: as though we have a Fallout-esque choice between pressing A to take it in the butt, pressing B to take it in the vag, or pressing X to fight. Seriously?

It is way too early to be outraged, we lack the appropriate level of information to be properly outraged over anything yet. Reacting like this makes LEGITIMATE REACTIONS end up cheapened, weaker, lacking as much respect.

[Chun Liroy]

Leroy, the sheer comparison you just made...

Y'know what? Go get shot in the mouth like 50, then come back and validate that bullshit.

Note that I said get shot in the mouth, not take a shot in the mouth. With you cupping the balls of whatever popular male poster that you can, I know that could have been potentially confusing.

stop hurting my feels bro

[Sera]

I don't know; it's a really big question. If the story is about a character who experiences sexual assault, suffers from it, confronts it, struggles with it, and integrates those personal failures and successes with addressing it ...that could be a very powerful (and empowering) treatment. It would also be a pretty large focus. I would guess when you received the response of "it shouldn't be in an action game!" that person was attempting to articulate the unsatisfying, insulting, and off-handed nature of bringing in something that distressing, personal, and (again), likely-to-have-happened-to-you-or-someone-you-know, in a game whose mechanics are climbing around on shit and shooting dudes.

That is not a shot at video games, but rather trying to point out that What purpose does it serve? is heavily influenced by Well, what exactly are we doing here?.

I get this. Really. But at what point do we just go "because this medium is not a movie/book/art and by definition has to have action because it has to be participatory in some manner"? No one is going to play a game that is 5 hours of her sitting on her shrink's couch, crying and having panic attacks the next 10 times she is confronted with having to have CONSENSUAL sex, et cetera. At some point we have to kind of realize that it has been a plot aspect in many forms of media without it becoming the sole focus. Why are we suddenly so insulted by that?

[Chun Liroy]

Was Enough a bad movie?

[Sera]

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1114051-enough/

[isladar]

Sera, I would say that failure in other media does not excuse in any other mediums'. It is absolutely imperative to expect better, and separating video games as being a new format doesn't give it a grace period. Besides, the format of the story is far less material than the content of the story. Whether you are getting a story from a book, a movie, a video game, or whatever else might be concocted in the future, you are still being presented with a story, and no amount of 'immersive gameplay' can remove the agency of the writers. Option A, B, or X are still choices that have been framed and written by the authors. They have agency. If I invent a new entertainment technology today and present an exploitative story with it, the new technology does not absolve the content.

Why is it that we can't approach this topic because there are other options? [...]

We don't KNOW if this will do the premise justice, because we literally know nothing about it except that there IS in fact a scene that implies attempted rape.

As I've said, I certainly don't think sexual assault should never be addressed. My questions regarding the use of sexual assault are What purpose does it serve? and What does it do to further the story? If those questions can be answered by anything else, then I find that indicative of sexual assault not being addressed well or respectfully, and that the author is lazily using shock or embedded responses to avoid actually writing. I question its use in the context of Tomb Raider as given the sort of story Tomb Raider purports to be (Indiana Jonesin'), what kind of meaningful treatment could sexual assault be given?

Perhaps this new Tomb Raider is going to be a story that focuses on Lara Croft's struggle and difficulties with the assault, as well as the ups and downs of emotional growth in light of such a horrendous act. You're right to say that we do not know. If the story is not that sort of treatment, however, then the assault is given no value other than the usual sexual assault as characterization bullshit, which could have as easily been achieved by any other means.

Honestly, no matter what else is discussed, this

Let's be honest here: whenever any assault is perpetuated upon a female by a male, isn't sexual assault usually assumed or implied?

is the whole of the problem.

Characterized female strength is only given in light of assumed female helplessness. That is inherently problematic. The assumption and implication of sexualized context in female portrayals is to me unacceptable.

Again, Beef McLargehuge is never a badass because of the act of a female making him helpless; male characters are never defined by sexual assault or sexuality in general. It is the default assumption when that situation is applied to a female character, and I think it reflects poorly on all forms of media, video games or otherwise.

[Sera]

Sera, I would say that failure in other media does not excuse in any other mediums'. It is absolutely imperative to expect better, and separating video games as being a new format doesn't give it a grace period. Besides, the format of the story is far less material than the content of the story. Whether you are getting a story from a book, a movie, a video game, or whatever else might be concocted in the future, you are still being presented with a story, and no amount of 'immersive gameplay' can remove the agency of the writers. Option A, B, or X are still choices that have been framed and written by the authors. They have agency. If I invent a new entertainment technology today and present an exploitative story with it, the new technology does not absolve the content.



As I've said, I certainly don't think sexual assault should never be addressed. My questions regarding the use of sexual assault are What purpose does it serve? and What does it do to further the story? If those questions can be answered by anything else, then I find that indicative of sexual assault not being addressed well or respectfully, and that the author is lazily using shock or embedded responses to avoid actually writing. I question its use in the context of Tomb Raider as given the sort of story Tomb Raider purports to be (Indiana Jonesin'), what kind of meaningful treatment could sexual assault be given?

Perhaps this new Tomb Raider is going to be a story that focuses on Lara Croft's struggle and difficulties with the assault, as well as the ups and downs of emotional growth in light of such a horrendous act. You're right to say that we do not know. If the story is not that sort of treatment, however, then the assault is given no value other than the usual sexual assault as characterization bullshit, which could have as easily been achieved by any other means.

Honestly, no matter what else is discussed, this



is the whole of the problem.

Characterized female strength is only given in light of assumed female helplessness. That is inherently problematic. The assumption and implication of sexualized context in female portrayals is to me unacceptable.

Again, Beef McLargehuge is never a badass because of the act of a female making him helpless; male characters are never defined by sexual assault or sexuality in general. It is the default assumption when that situation is applied to a female character, and I think it reflects poorly on all forms of media, video games or otherwise.

You completely missed my point. It wasn't that this was the only way a woman could be considered strong or defined -- and as far as we know, it isn't what defines her fully either. We don't know ANYTHING, isla -- except that, because the game isn't out yet. Just because it CAN be achieved by other means, doesn't mean it HAS to be. My point is that it is an option for a female character, and to sit here and say people have no right to use that option simply because there are others, is ridiculous. I don't think anyone assumes Lara is helpless female figure -- she is quite the contrary-- a ovaries-on-the-outside badass -- and has always been portrayed as such.

[isladar]

I get this. Really. But at what point do we just go "because this medium is not a movie/book/art and by definition has to have action because it has to be participatory in some manner"? No one is going to play a game that is 5 hours of her sitting on her shrink's couch, crying and having panic attacks the next 10 times she is confronted with having to have CONSENSUAL sex, et cetera. At some point we have to kind of realize that it has been a plot aspect in many forms of media without it becoming the sole focus. Why are we suddenly so insulted by that?

I'm criticizing all media portrayals of this because I have accepted the premise of the argument that video games are legitimate media, and am including video games in the generalized critique.

I do not feel it necessary to accept the use of sexual assault as a plot aspect when such treatment is dehumanizing, cheap schlok for lazy writers. I would argue that this isn't a sudden insult; rather, as you mentioned, the internet provides a means of more thoughts on subjects being discussed, rather than just between a small group of friends.

[Sera]

my point is that people are making a really big deal over something when they have like 1% of the information needed to determine IF it is even a big deal at all -- and that the internet makes it really easy for people to take 5 seconds worth of information out of several hours of gameplay and ROAST the entire project over it while riding their self-righteous feminist high horse.

That makes EVERYONE look bad in the end.

[isladar]

I don't know that I've said that no one has the right to use that option because there are others, I've been asking that we examine why and to what purpose sexual assault is used. The subtext of that examination is to address how poorly and disrespectfully it has been used. Again, you are correct to say we do not know how Tomb Raider will use that scene. I would be well-supported by the assumptions you mentioned, as well as the vast majority of story produced, regardless of medium, to suppose that it is highly unlikely that this particular example of sexual assault in a story will be a respectful portrayal.

[Chun Liroy]

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1114051-enough/

What do RT critics know anyways, pfft.

[Mertron]

i like rape

[Mertron]

i didn't read any of the thread

[Sera]

I don't know that I've said that no one has the right to use that option because there are others, I've been asking that we examine why and to what purpose sexual assault is used. The subtext of that examination is to address how poorly and disrespectfully it has been used. Again, you are correct to say we do not know how Tomb Raider will use that scene. I would be well-supported by the assumptions you mentioned, as well as the vast majority of story produced, regardless of medium, to suppose that it is highly unlikely that this particular example of sexual assault in a story will be a respectful portrayal.

Then let's save our outrage for when we're armed with enough concrete information (ie not assumptions) to address it. You see, my point here is that I feel that MY experiences are MORE trivialized by knee-jerk outrage than by video games who may-possibly-have-not-addressed-it-properly-but-we-don't-know-yet.

Who in this scenario is doing more damage to the Cause? you know what I mean?

[isladar]

I see what you're saying, absolutely. I would say that my original interest in responding was to pull the discussion into a larger context, i.e., the fact that this kind of issue is endemic in all media, and is not unique to video games. Wonder Woman was discussed, and then the Tomb Raider example was brought in again since it was convenient to the conversation. I certainly wasn't trying to frame everything in context of simply the Tomb Raider example.

[Sera]

I see what you're saying, absolutely. I would say that my original interest in responding was to pull the discussion into a larger context, i.e., the fact that this kind of issue is endemic in all media, and is not unique to video games. Wonder Woman was discussed, and then the Tomb Raider example was brought in again since it was convenient to the conversation. I certainly wasn't trying to frame everything in context of simply the Tomb Raider example.

That was my point then. People spent so much time being OMGFUCKINGOUTRAGEDRAWRRRRR over it that they didn't pause to consider that they literally had NO INFORMATION other than that there IS an attempted rape in her backstory somewhere. But when we watch people kill themselves at point blank camera angle while observing the sheer terror on their faces, that's considered acceptable fodder for a ZOMBIE GAME TRAILER? Someone actually said "can't we just stick to the beatemup/gun violence in video games and stay away from sexual assault?" As if somehow the wanton physical assault and taking of another (or one's own) human life is just trivial and can be used at will and without respect or context in any video game for the sake of entertainment. As if gang and gun violence is not as touchy of a subject to my brother who has been shot or my sister who has been stabbed in a gang fight as the rape situation would be to me. Let's not kid ourselves here.

[Ikarys]

Then let's save our outrage for when we're armed with enough concrete information (ie not assumptions) to address it. You see, my point here is that I feel that MY experiences are MORE trivialized by knee-jerk outrage than by video games who may-possibly-have-not-addressed-it-properly-but-we-don't-know-yet.

Who in this scenario is doing more damage to the Cause? you know what I mean?

There is a huge difference between knee-jerk outrage and being critical of something. You use the information presented as a way to make conclusions until further information is available. In this case, the trailer still does nothing to put the concerns and statements made about sexual assault, meaningful representation, and powerlessness of women to rest. Which is what they are; concerns and questions, not knee-jerk reactions.

[isladar]

In the context of story and entertainment I think it's just as problematic to trivialize/normalize gratuitous violence. I've had numerous discussions with my husband about how to make a fun/compelling/engaging game whose main mechanic isn't violence. It's sad that such treatments are few and far between. There are some interesting examples, however. To go back to my original post, it does bring up issues of what constitutes maturity. Unfortunately, what is popularly associated with the term 'mature' is juvenile as fuck.

[Charismatic]

juvenile as fuck.

Nice.

[Chun Liroy]

Yo, he's got a new CD coming out like next week or something.