This topic is about rape

[Charismatic]

I know.

[quannum]

Yet women still watch Lifetime?

lifetime is science fiction for women

[Linliel]

yeah, Ryko, sorry, you were asking decent questions, it was the later stuff that made me angry. It's just upsetting when someone comes in and derails it by dismissing the arguments as being ultra feminist and unthinking or whatever. I was actually pretty upset by that, Sera, and your continuing in that vein is not making me want to discuss this topic with you in the slightest. Yes, I'm taking it personally, because it was personal. And that's kinda upsetting from a friend.

As to Ryko though, if it helps you to understand my perspective, I've agreed with everything Isla has said so far. I'm not going to bother adding more exposition because it'd just be repeating things. But the "it's lazy writing not worth any media" was basically what I was getting at; and the fact that it was plugged into a context that has historically been about objectifying the main character for her physical assets doesn't help in the slightest. Like I said repeatedly, and the point which you seemed to miss, was that I'm not dismissing games as a medium for exploring deep issues. I'm just dismissing this particular game because it seems as though they haven't really bothered to deal with it as anything more than a Character Building exercise. I thought, for example, that Knights of the Old Republic made a really good job of the grey areas of morality, and how easy it is to slip into making morally bad decisions (and moving to the Dark Side). That was the first game of that type that I played, and it's had a very lasting effect on me in terms of my opinions about the ability for games to affect change in the way people think. So please don't get me wrong there. I've seen some more discussions about the scene that is going to be in TR and the descriptions of Lara being "stripped down" to a "wild animal" and crying after killing a deer just seem to me to be on the gratuitous side, is all. I really hope I'm wrong. I really hope this is going to be a KotOR moment and gamers can empathise with the horror that she has experienced. I'd love it if that could happen in FPSes too, especially war scenario games - I think it's really important for people to understand what war is actually about - it's not about gung ho sweeping in to save the day, it's about "blood and guts and veins in your teeth" to quote Arlo Guthrie. If TR's scene is not one of these moments, though, it's ill-considered, sloppy writing at best, because of all the reasons Isla has suggested.

Does that help you understand my perspective a bit more?

[Mizango]

Yeah, Leroy's finally grown past that point where he goes crying to Miz when his feelings are hurt on this f--wait...

Oh damn.

[Mizango]

On the real Leroy, you're on some dumb shit though. Just read the last few pages and wow.

[Sera]

There is a huge difference between knee-jerk outrage and being critical of something. You use the information presented as a way to make conclusions until further information is available. In this case, the trailer still does nothing to put the concerns and statements made about sexual assault, meaningful representation, and powerlessness of women to rest. Which is what they are; concerns and questions, not knee-jerk reactions.

And why exactly should we even worry about it yet, considering we don't have any real information yet to be critical OF.

[Sera]

lifetime is science fiction for stupid women

ftfy

[Sera]

yeah, Ryko, sorry, you were asking decent questions, it was the later stuff that made me angry. It's just upsetting when someone comes in and derails it by dismissing the arguments as being ultra feminist and unthinking or whatever. I was actually pretty upset by that, Sera, and your continuing in that vein is not making me want to discuss this topic with you in the slightest. Yes, I'm taking it personally, because it was personal. And that's kinda upsetting from a friend.

When you base your criticism or discussion on 15 seconds of cutscene footage and a shitty interview with an idiot? Yeah, sorry. That's not thinking.

Making assumptions based on what VERY little information we were even provided with and then getting on some sort of feminist high horse about it (and maybe you didn't initially, but Demo sure as hell did) makes the experiences I have suffered in MY life -- you know, ACTUAL abuse, ACTUAL sexual assault, et cetera, -- feel like it is being trivialized more than some video game that MAY OR MAY NOT BE DOING THESE THINGS AT ALL BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE A FUCKING CLUE YET. Again, save the criticism for when we have more than 15 fucking SECONDS of sliced up cutscene footage -- that is ALL I ask. Making assumptions and being needlessly critical to the point where people are DISCOURAGED from even TRYING to address any issues doesn't do ANYONE any favors.

[quannum]

character building exercise
http://loudchan.hostoi.com/ffvi/capturas/FFVI-749.jpg

[Charismatic]

OoC once again, Sera... you're a pro @ this.

[quannum]

ftfy

redundant

[Sera]

In the context of story and entertainment I think it's just as problematic to trivialize/normalize gratuitous violence. I've had numerous discussions with my husband about how to make a fun/compelling/engaging game whose main mechanic isn't violence. It's sad that such treatments are few and far between. There are some interesting examples, however. To go back to my original post, it does bring up issues of what constitutes maturity. Unfortunately, what is popularly associated with the term 'mature' is juvenile as fuck.

Glad someone else feels this way.

I'm just saying it's hypocritical to find a shred of information and ride it all the way to the outrage train over one issue but then be like "can't we just go back to the gratuitous violence????" People who do this piss me the fuck off, and No, we fucking can't go back, and we shouldn't. Asshole. Stop discrediting the rest of us (some of whom actually have firsthand experience with these issues) with your bullshit.

[Linliel]

Making assumptions based on what VERY little information we were even provided with and then getting on some sort of feminist high horse about it (and maybe you didn't initially, but Demo sure as hell did) makes the experiences I have suffered in MY life -- you know, ACTUAL abuse, ACTUAL sexual assault, et cetera, -- feel like it is being trivialized more than some video game that MAY OR MAY NOT BE DOING THESE THINGS AT ALL BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE A FUCKING CLUE YET. Again, save the criticism for when we have more than 15 fucking SECONDS of sliced up cutscene footage -- that is ALL I ask. Making assumptions and being needlessly critical to the point where people are DISCOURAGED from even TRYING to address any issues doesn't do ANYONE any favors.

The problem is that the developer got involved and talked a lot about it. And that was the HUGE issue. Perhaps he just sucks at talking. But that's what we have to go on, so it's worthwhile questioning it at least. At least if it's questioned, it might make devs think twice about how they might go about fleshing out characters in future games. Your argument is very weak - the underlying issues (of how female characters are developed, how these sorts of tricky issues should be addressed) DO need to be talked about. Relying on waiting and seeing how this particular instance pans out isn't going to change that.

[Linliel]

Questioning isn't an "outrage train". It's legitimate avenue of discussion about some very difficult issues that face all media.

[Linliel]

I'm still pretty angry and upset with you about this too, so I'm not going to talk to you about this topic any more. Happy to talk to Ryko though.

[Mizango]

character building exercise
http://loudchan.hostoi.com/ffvi/capturas/FFVI-749.jpg

I hated that scene, I rune fucked the shit out of everyone from that point forward.

[Charismatic]

Told.

[Charismatic]

GDI Miz.

[Mizango]

lol

[Sera]

The problem is that the developer got involved and talked a lot about it. And that was the HUGE issue. Perhaps he just sucks at talking. But that's what we have to go on, so it's worthwhile questioning it at least. At least if it's questioned, it might make devs think twice about how they might go about fleshing out characters in future games. Your argument is very weak - the underlying issues (of how female characters are developed, how these sorts of tricky issues should be addressed) DO need to be talked about. Relying on waiting and seeing how this particular instance pans out isn't going to change that.

Except that everyone acknowledge straight out of the gate that he is an idiot and obviously has no PR training or active neurons. So we're going to just judge based on that? Questioning IS one thing, making assumptions and judgmental statements is quite another. The problem is some people don't know the difference when they get rolling, and it makes everyone look fucking stupid. All this because of a high voice register in her voice actor (OMG SHE SOUNDS PORNOGRAPHICZZZ) and some idiot said some dumb shit in an interview, plus 15 seconds of video and we're all ready to just burn the game to the ground.
Cool, that will definitely have people trying to address it in the future. After all, who wouldn't want to put their ass on the line addressing a taboo social issue in a medium they love only to have it torn to shreds by laypeople who get off on grabbing torches an pitchforks when one person misspeaks and they watch 3% of your work?

No, that totally sounds appealing! Who wouldn't want to do that?