Feminism Thread

[Koul]

Finally you come out and say it. You're a real woman and trans women aren't.

This isn't what she's saying at all nor what the terms mean.

[Charismatic]

Finally you come out and say it. You're a real woman and trans women aren't.

Putting words in people's mouths that they clearly don't mean is never a way to win an argument, folks.

[Lyall]

Transwomen are also women.

And transwomen are the exception to the norm. Did you know that some people are born blind? Or deaf? Hell, some people are born without use of their legs. We don't call the rest of us vision-abled or hearing-abled or walking-abled. The rest of us are just people.

We don't make up terms to describe the majority. There's no need to. The minority side (or the other, or the whatever-you-get-my-point) gets a qualifying term to acknowledge the difference.

It's not undermining, it's not minimizing, it's not implying inferiority in any way. It's just describing outside the norm. The original word already does that.

[Kuya]

So... we don't want cisgender now either?

[Charismatic]

So... we don't want cisgender now either?

Well, that was the original takeaway... I'd say. It was never wanted in the first place. She was saying she'd settle for it though.
English isn't your first language so I'll give you some leeway here.

[Lyall]

So... we don't want cisgender now either?

If you've absolutely got to put a label on every single description of a person, sure, that's the inoffensive one. Still unnecessary, especially if you're referring to someone else in the same sentence as trans-woman.

[Kuya]

Ok so cisgender is fine. Cool. Moving on.

[Lyall]

I'll put it in terms we can all understand.

This is the Iron Mark mark2 armor.

Spoiler: show

http://www.heyuguys.com/images/2010/...-iii-armor.jpg

Nobody calls it that. It's just the Iron Man armor.

This is the Hulkbuster armor.

Spoiler: show

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UDaymAbM21...0/IMG_9689.jpg

Everybody calls it that. Cisgendered people are just Iron Man armor. Everyone else gets to be Hulkbuster, so they're called out to.

Sounds fair to me.

[Correction]

And transwomen are the exception to the norm. Did you know that some people are born blind? Or deaf? Hell, some people are born without use of their legs. We don't call the rest of us vision-abled or hearing-abled or walking-abled. The rest of us are just people.

We don't make up terms to describe the majority. There's no need to. The minority side (or the other, or the whatever-you-get-my-point) gets a qualifying term to acknowledge the difference.

It's not undermining, it's not minimizing, it's not implying inferiority in any way. It's just describing outside the norm. The original word already does that.

The reality is that transgender people face a lot of political and cultural marginalization around the world, and when it's time to discuss that it gets exhausting saying 'transgender and non-transgender' and oh look, here's a convenient word that means 'non-trans' that's been used in scientific discourse for a century!

Nobody forces you to use it to identify yourself and others, and it's no more 'made up' than any other word in the English language. The pushback is mind-boggling. You don't want to see it? Then stay away from discussions of trans issues if you don't have an interest in them. The existence of the word is not coincident with some requirement that everyone universally modify their vocabulary, here and anywhere else you end up in life. The way people have reacted to it here you'd think it was getting rammed down your throat.

[Mazmaz]

Oh and it seems feminism is a daily debate and terms like cis and heteronormative are never used. So yeah, forgive me for not believing you about them not being buzzwords.

That's because the spaces that you are having those discussions may not be spaces that are inclusive to discussions of gender identity. For example, mommy boards sounds like a mostly, if not as a whole, space for members who identify as a straight female (i.e. cis heteronormative space).

It's ironic because you proved my point about having inclusive feminist spaces with that debacle of a response.

[Ksandra]

Well, that was the original takeaway... I'd say. It was never wanted in the first place. She was saying she'd settle for it though.
English isn't your first language so I'll give you some leeway here.

^ this

I mean like I could see something like, "ksandra, who is cisgender, did not experience gender discrimination growing up." Would be ok since the qualifier is showing what type of gender discrimination the speaker is referring to.

But I think those qualifiers are going to be vastly unnecessary in most speech.

[hey]

wtf is happening here? Cis is no more a slur than trans is.

[Ksandra]

That's because the spaces that you are having those discussions may not be spaces that are inclusive to discussions of gender identity. For example, mommy boards sounds like a mostly, if not as a whole, space for members who identify as a straight female (i.e. cis heteronormative space).

It's ironic because you proved my point about having inclusive feminist spaces with that debacle of a response.

I think it says a lot more about posters here not recognizing how many lesbian and transgender moms there are out there. There are a lot on those boards. Even polygamist bisexuals.

And the point is there are more of those THERE than HERE. So are a better gauge than BG.

[Ksandra]

I would hope everyone realizes lesbians and transgenders can still have kids right?

[Lyall]

wtf is happening here? Cis is no more a slur than trans is.

Imagine you'd never seen the word "trans" before, and then suddenly in your video game forums and in your blogs and in your news people suddenly started talking about how "trans scum" are what's wrong with the world. It would very quickly become affiliated with derogatory statements, so even when used correctly it still sets a bad tone.

Maybe I'm just a sheltered manbaby or something but I never heard the term "cisgender" until looong after I'd been called "cis scum" for having the gumption to be born a white dude.

[hey]

Imagine you'd never seen the word "trans" before, and then suddenly in your video game forums and in your blogs and in your news people suddenly started talking about how "trans scum" are what's wrong with the world. It would very quickly become affiliated with derogatory statements, so even when used correctly it still sets a bad tone.

Maybe I'm just a sheltered manbaby or something but I never heard the term "cisgender" until looong after I'd been called "cis scum" for having the gumption to be born a white dude.

Yes, you're a sheltered manbaby. I see it used dozens of times a day, every day, and never as an insult. If you don't spend much time with trans people, then you're probably not going to encounter the word much, because most cis people don't see a need to make such a distinction. That doesn't change the fact that 99% of the time it's used there is absolutely no ill will behind it.

[Milkster]

Yes, you're a sheltered manbaby. I see it used dozens of times a day, every day, and never as an insult. If you don't spend much time with trans people, then you're probably not going to encounter the word much, because most cis people don't see a need to make such a distinction. That doesn't change the fact that 99% of the time it's used there is absolutely no ill will behind it.

And 99% of the time I see it, it's been used in a derogatory since. Same thing with heteronormative, that sounds so condescending, gender roles, etc. All these new terms popping up becuase of internet bloggers has such a air of superiority to them. As if you not conforming to their ideals makes you less of a person. Even the beginning of your post came off as an asshole yet you want to decry others when they get snarky back. It's pretty funny.

When did Mazmaz turn into a Tumblrina?

[BaneTheBrawler]

someone have the die cis scum bg logo whatshisface (celeste? celestialstrife? something like that) made? i feel like it's relevant to this discussion

[hey]

I think it says a lot more about posters here not recognizing how many lesbian and transgender moms there are out there. There are a lot on those boards. Even polygamist bisexuals.

And the point is there are more of those THERE than HERE. So are a better gauge than BG.

Trans women and lesbians obviously have kids at a much lower rate than straight cis people do. Probably because both groups are usually incapable of having kids on their own.

I think you just don't realize how many trans people are here on bg.

[quannum]