Feminism Thread

**Ksandra** · 2014-09-26 19:29

Originally Posted by archibaldcrane

That's...a strange interpretation of how I view feminism. From my point of view, the two most important ways feminism is awesome for "dudes" are:

A) Sexual liberation / birth control. Allows dudes to date/have sex with women without expectation of marrying them and with a significant reduction in the risk of impregnating them.

B) Women's economic self-determination.
Takes the pressure off men to be expected to be the sole breadwinner in a family and, well, allows women to be more interesting to dudes because they get into things that aren't just babies and domestic duties. As someone who basically only ever dated college grads, this is important to me.

That link was about the most pedestrian feminist issue of all, avoiding violence, which I hardly consider to be a "feminist issue" - it's so incredibly obvious that I have a hard time claiming to be a feminist with that issue as my calling card.

I totally agree with you on B, but A is missing a major factor. Feminism has a real big push for full bodily autonomy. Which puts men as being the major partner that has to "keep it in the pants."

In a nutshell full bodily autonomy means that the women has full say in keeping/aborting a baby with the men having no say. So it becomes: women can have sex no matter what, without fear of caring to term if they don't want. Men can have sex with the fear that if there is a error in BC, they could end up with child support payments without any further decision.

Now, you may be fully ok with it, but I think it was important to point out that sexual liberation/birth control final goal will end up favoring women more than men.

**archibaldcrane** · 2014-09-26 19:42

I support women's full body autonomy, and if that's a "feminist goal", mission accomplished - (adult) women have been able to get abortions in the US without the father's consent since before I was born.

**Charismatic** · 2014-09-26 19:44

Originally Posted by archibaldcrane

I support women's full body autonomy, and if that's a "feminist goal", mission accomplished

awwwwww here it goes

**archibaldcrane** · 2014-09-26 19:47

Originally Posted by archibaldcrane

Great link, and confirmed what I expected - every adult male in the first 20 or so stories (stopped looking after that) was either physically restrained (handcuffs) or passed out drunk/drugged or asleep, and upon waking up to their rape, successfully fought off their attacker.

The nearly universal scorn they faced / ignored by police is sad and awful.

Reading further there are a few psychological cases, where abused husbands say no but are too mentally fatigued to fight or where a female rapist got a man to give in with threats that she will say he raped her.

**Ksandra** · 2014-09-26 19:50

Originally Posted by archibaldcrane

I support women's full body autonomy, and if that's a "feminist goal", mission accomplished - (adult) women have been able to get abortions in the US without the father's consent since before I was born.

Yeah I get that, it just sounded like the positives you stated where in general for 'dudes' not just you specific. I think some men wouldn't find that awesome is my point.

**archibaldcrane** · 2014-09-26 19:59

If that's the single "con" for men in the women's sexual liberation movement, I'll take it every day and twice on Sunday.

**Kuya** · 2014-09-26 22:46

The confounding factor is that men don't have to do anything else besides getting a female pregnant, and it's the latter that has to deal with all the consequences of child birth, including the potential for serious health hazards. I think the best solution for that problem is when technology advances far enough that women are no longer needed to incubate.

**Priran** · 2014-09-26 22:55

Originally Posted by Mazmaz

You're right. 1/4 women sexually assaulted isn't a sea. It's an ocean.

To be fair, that statistic is a lot of bullshit.

Trufax: The reported statistic is "1 in 4 women who go to college", not "1 in 4 women". If 1 in 4 women were raped there'd be several hundreds of thousands of rapes in the US alone per year.
Trufax 2: The study that found "1 in 4 college women are raped" included in its definition of "rape" things most people (including the people surveyed) would not consider rape, such as sexual assault and ever regretting having had sex while drunk.

**Ksandra** · 2014-09-26 23:07

Originally Posted by Kuya

The confounding factor is that men don't have to do anything else besides getting a female pregnant, and it's the latter that has to deal with all the consequences of child birth, including the potential for serious health hazards. I think the best solution for that problem is when technology advances far enough that women are no longer needed to incubate.

yeah I totally recognize that. Though, I can see why it is such a hot topic because there really is no way to make it "equal". I would love men to have some kind of say because they are going to be responsible for it for 18 years if the woman takes the baby to term. But obviously, the woman needs the say since it is happening to her body and it's her health risks for 9 months.

I hate the whole aspect of that when it comes to feminism. It seems pretty heated on whether prolife women can call themselves feminists. I am not prolife, but I can sympathize with where these women are coming from. There seems to be like zero coming to terms with these two groups though. And I don't think that will ever change until like you said these women don't have to keep the baby in their bodies.

I would imagine the technology is getting there though. My husband's family seem to have a lot of women who birth early. He has a cousin who gave birth when she was only 5 months pregnant. Another cousin was due the same week as me, and gave birth three months early. And SiL just recently gave birth three months early. Seeing these babies is just so amazing. The first one (6 years old I think), sadly, has a lot of health complications. He has to wear a breathing tube, but they are working towards him no longer needing it someday. The other two seem to be perfectly normal so far. I don't think it will be long before they can survive through machine from day one.

Then the problem for the prolifers needs to switch to who is going to be responsible for these babies (which yes should be something they are focusing on NOW because of their stance, but this will just push it finally imo).

**NynJa** · 2014-09-26 23:19

Originally Posted by Priran

Trufax 2: The study that found "1 in 4 college women are raped" included in its definition of "rape" things most people (including the people surveyed) would not consider rape, such as sexual assault and ever regretting having had sex while drunk.

I bet this line pisses a couple people here off lol

**archibaldcrane** · 2014-09-26 23:27

It's boring to argue with people who think drunk girls are fair game to fuck, despite not being able to give legal consent.

**hey** · 2014-09-26 23:28

Originally Posted by Ksandra

I totally agree with you on B, but A is missing a major factor. Feminism has a real big push for full bodily autonomy. Which puts men as being the major partner that has to "keep it in the pants."

In a nutshell full bodily autonomy means that the women has full say in keeping/aborting a baby with the men having no say. So it becomes: women can have sex no matter what, without fear of caring to term if they don't want. Men can have sex with the fear that if there is a error in BC, they could end up with child support payments without any further decision.

Now, you may be fully ok with it, but I think it was important to point out that sexual liberation/birth control final goal will end up favoring women more than men.

Abortion favors women because men typically can't have abortions. It's exactly how it should be.

**Kuya** · 2014-09-26 23:28

Originally Posted by Ksandra

yeah I totally recognize that. Though, I can see why it is such a hot topic because there really is no way to make it "equal". I would love men to have some kind of say because they are going to be responsible for it for 18 years if the woman takes the baby to term. But obviously, the woman needs the say since it is happening to her body and it's her health risks for 9 months.

I hate the whole aspect of that when it comes to feminism. It seems pretty heated on whether prolife women can call themselves feminists. I am not prolife, but I can sympathize with where these women are coming from. There seems to be like zero coming to terms with these two groups though. And I don't think that will ever change until like you said these women don't have to keep the baby in their bodies.

I would imagine the technology is getting there though. My husband's family seem to have a lot of women who birth early. He has a cousin who gave birth when she was only 5 months pregnant. Another cousin was due the same week as me, and gave birth three months early. And SiL just recently gave birth three months early. Seeing these babies is just so amazing. The first one (6 years old I think), sadly, has a lot of health complications. He has to wear a breathing tube, but they are working towards him no longer needing it someday. The other two seem to be perfectly normal so far. I don't think it will be long before they can survive through machine from day one.

Then the problem for the prolifers needs to switch to who is going to be responsible for these babies (which yes should be something they are focusing on NOW because of their stance, but this will just push it finally imo).

I think the technology for artificial incubators shouldn't take too long. We might even see it within our lifetimes. Once that is something available to the masses, i think we'll see gender/sex dynamics change for the better.

**Priran** · 2014-09-27 00:08

Originally Posted by archibaldcrane

It's boring to argue with people who think drunk girls are fair game to fuck, despite not being able to give legal consent.

One time I went to a bar and got drunk, then drove home. Some cop tried arresting me and I was like "ugh, stop oppressing me! I never consented to those pedestrians splattering themselves on my hood!"

There's a difference between being willfully intoxicated and being drugged or unconscious. If you go to a bar, choose to drink, and those drinks have nothing in them but alcohol then you were not raped when said willingly ingested alcohol impairs your decision making to the point that you leave with someone you wouldn't have if you were sober.

As I recall, something like 3/4 of the people who said that happened to them also said they did not feel like it was rape, but it was lumped in anyway.

**Charismatic** · 2014-09-27 00:08

Originally Posted by archibaldcrane

It's boring to argue with people who think drunk girls are fair game to fuck, despite not being able to give legal consent.

You realize that in a vast majority of these cases BOTH parties are drunk, right?
How do you address that? Drunken sex will be a thing as long as drinking is a thing.

That aside, when are we going to stop completely absolving women and only women of responsibility for making choices when voluntarily drunk/under the influence? (Or does the scenario change for you when both parties are drunk, which is the case the vast majority of the time)

**archibaldcrane** · 2014-09-27 00:16

Not fucking drunk people who cannot legally consent to sex is super easy.

**archibaldcrane** · 2014-09-27 00:18

Originally Posted by Priran

As I recall, something like 3/4 of the people who said that happened to them also said they did not feel like it was rape, but it was lumped in anyway.

If that is true, it's wildly irresponsible to include those incidents in sexual assault statistics.
If - I'd love to see a link.

Edit :given that stat is from '82, i don't trust even the women's opinions about whether they were raped by a current definition.

**GoggleHead** · 2014-09-27 00:19

Originally Posted by archibaldcrane

That's...a strange interpretation of how I view feminism. From my point of view, the two most important ways feminism is awesome for "dudes" are:

A) Sexual liberation / birth control. Allows dudes to date/have sex with women without expectation of marrying them and with a significant reduction in the risk of impregnating them.

Just gonna say, I don't see how this is a benefit. As a man, I want to find a woman to marry. Why would I want to court a woman without the end goal being to find a person worth sharing the rest of my life with? Casual sex? Is that what we're touting as a benefit? Fuck that, if I just want to get off I have the whole fucking internet with more porn than I could ever consume, but finding that emotional connection is far more elusive and valuable.

**archibaldcrane** · 2014-09-27 00:22

Here's a decent breakdown :

http://www.iwf.org/news/2432517/One-...-injustice-too

That stat is from 1982, so regardless of the vagaries of the "what is rape" question, we shouldn't still be using a stat as old as we are.

**NynJa** · 2014-09-27 00:22

Originally Posted by archibaldcrane

Not fucking drunk people who cannot legally consent to sex is super easy.

How many of these girls were given breathalyzers to determine their blood alcohol levels? I cant imagine all that many considering most of the time the rape claim happens the day after.

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