Feminism Thread

[Tarage]

I am willing to bet they are rare, and even more rarely enforced. After all, people would claim it would encourage people to go after rape victims.

To me, the whole this is bananas. Rape, ACTUAL rape, is fucking horrible. If I knew someone raped someone else, I would instantly cut ties with said person and never interact with them again. Thankfully all of my friends aren't retarded assholes, but then again my industry doesn't really attract the sort who would most likely rape. I just... cringe whenever someone like hey starts spouting off about rape statistics, and mutual rape, and rape privilege. It brings out the worst emotions in me. Emotions I should not be having when I think about rape. Emotions NO ONE should have about rape. Rape is horrible, and if you label everything rape, you demean ACTUAL rape to the point where it loses meaning.

[Mazmaz]

I would like the legal eagles in this thread to point me to a SINGLE instance where a woman convinced a guy to have sex who was too drunk to consent "legally", and it resulted in her being convicted as a rapist.

Oh, and I am very much looking forward to the people who are going to state that women cannot rape.

Probably very hard to find, considering the patriarchal society we live in tells men they can't show weakness, can't be raped, can't report rape, etc.

[BaneTheBrawler]

patriarchal society

shut the fuck up

[hey]

I am willing to bet they are rare, and even more rarely enforced. After all, people would claim it would encourage people to go after rape victims.

To me, the whole this is bananas. Rape, ACTUAL rape, is fucking horrible. If I knew someone raped someone else, I would instantly cut ties with said person and never interact with them again. Thankfully all of my friends aren't retarded assholes, but then again my industry doesn't really attract the sort who would most likely rape. I just... cringe whenever someone like hey starts spouting off about rape statistics, and mutual rape, and rape privilege. It brings out the worst emotions in me. Emotions I should not be having when I think about rape. Emotions NO ONE should have about rape. Rape is horrible, and if you label everything rape, you demean ACTUAL rape to the point where it loses meaning.

It's still pretty horrible to be coerced into it because you were intoxicated. That IS actual rape, no different than if someone drugged them.

[Tarage]

It's still pretty horrible to be coerced into it because you were intoxicated. That IS actual rape, no different than if someone drugged them.

At what point does it stop being a bad decision on your part and starts being completely out of your control? In between those two extremes is a HUGE gray area. But you've clearly decided that the entire spectrum is rape, so there's no point in debating.

And again, point me to an instance where a drunk guy had sex with a woman he didn't want to have sex with and the woman ended up being convicted of rape. You can't. You're just as guilty of playing gender games as everyone else and you know it.

[Aoshi]

It does beg the question when we consider the prospect of overweight women intentionally getting attractive men intoxicated in an effort to lower their judgment and get laid often humorous, yet when the scenario is flipped on it's head it's a much more serious issue.

There are a number of times I've seen guys do the "walk of shame" out of the dorm rooms of certain women they never would have consented to be with in a sober state of mind or their friends have left them behind blacked out from drinking, but more often than not instead of the situation being considered a form of sexual assault or the men being taken advantage of it's laughed off.

While the possibility of sexual assault is very real in cases concerning both men and women and alcohol consumption, and please don't think I'm using this to belittle the very real issue many women are facing in these situations, why is one case usually seen as a joke and the other taken much more seriously?

The issue I'm talking about isn't so much the lack of reports but the fact that it's actually seen as hilarious to many when this happens to a guy.

[Mazmaz]

I don't understand the point you guys are trying to make. Those things happen because we live in a shitty society that perpetuates horrible things for both men and women.

Are you trying to argue that we don't care about male victims? Because that's simply not true. We're arguing for all genders.

[hey]

At what point does it stop being a bad decision on your part and starts being completely out of your control?

I don't know.

But you've clearly decided that the entire spectrum is rape, so there's no point in debating.

Legally, it has to be, otherwise you end up with bullshit thought policing of victims, as has been seen quite a bit in this thread ("She wanted it!").

And again, point me to an instance where a drunk guy had sex with a woman he didn't want to have sex with and the woman ended up being convicted of rape. You can't. You're just as guilty of playing gender games as everyone else and you know it.

Male rape isn't take seriously at all by law enforcement. Hell, in many jurisdictions rape is defined in a way that it's impossible for a woman to rape a man. This is terrible, and should change. I'm not a cop who laughs away male rape victims, so not sure how i'm guilty of that.

While the possibility of sexual assault is very real in cases concerning both men and women and alcohol consumption, and please don't think I'm using this to belittle the very real issue many women are facing in these situations, why is one case usually seen as a joke and the other taken much more seriously?

Both cases need to be taken more seriously. The problem is indeed worse for men than for women.

[Aoshi]

I don't understand the point you guys are trying to make. Those things happen because we live in a shitty society that perpetuates horrible things for both men and women.

Are you trying to argue that we don't care about male victims? Because that's simply not true. We're arguing for all genders.

Don't take this the wrong way but... are you really?

When the response to why male victims don't get the same kind of legal attention or response from their peers is to blame the "patriarchy", and that it's an issue of men being told by other men that they can't be victims etc this implies that any women who commit these acts are absolved of the responsibility.

Basically it comes across as you implying that if it weren't for the ideals set forth by the "patriarchy" men would handle any and all cases like this and it wouldn't be an issue, is this correct?

Are you saying that women are incapable of educating and preventing the mindset and actions of other women in these scenarios? Are they unable to tell each other that false rape claims or taking advantage of men under the influence because they can get away with it is wrong?

Or as posted earlier, who does the responsibility fall on to educate women that taking advantage of the legal system when it comes to child support / custody is wrong, especially when there are groups of other women fighting to ensure they cannot be prosecuted for doing so? Is this also an issue that the "patriarchy" has to step in and deal with?

Keep in mind I'm well aware that there are many groups out there attempting to ratify these very issues and some are making significant headway, but simply hand-waving it and saying "Welp the patriarchy teaches men they can't be this" or "the patriarchy doesn't enforce laws on etc" is the reason why these things keep happening comes across as a bit.. dishonest.

I'm sure this isn't your intent, and i mean no disrespect but it's very easy to say "well people are shit to each other" and then go on to excuse female perpetrators by claiming that it's an issue of being in a male dominated society.

[Lyall]

Got drunk and hooked up with an ex before. She was hot, but a bitch, and normally I'd know better.

What I'm understanding here is that I've been raped, and that pisses me the fuck off because NO, I WAS NOT RAPED. Christ, I regretted it the day after and told her to fuck off but I can't for a second believe I'm a victim here.

Someone help me understand this.

[Aoshi]

Got drunk and hooked up with an ex before. She was hot, but a bitch, and normally I'd know better.

What I'm understanding here is that I've been raped, and that pisses me the fuck off because NO, I WAS NOT RAPED. Christ, I regretted it the day after and told her to fuck off but I can't for a second believe I'm a victim here.

Someone help me understand this.

I would say the situation varies depending on the level of intoxication and ability to give consent, one party knowingly taking advantage of another party who otherwise wouldn't or is unable to give consent at the time certainly qualifies as an unwanted and possibly forced sexual encounter given the circumstances, This goes further if one party is blacked out / unable to resist.

I think (would hope) the consensus so far is that legally without signs of physical violence, witnesses, or test results verifying the presence of certain drugs it's near impossible to determine whether or not consent was given behind closed doors after sex has taken place. Turning accusations of rape the morning after by either party essentially into battles of "He said / She said" in court, it's just more often however that many of these accusations (of which legitimacy is hard to prove) are more likely to be given consideration when made by women against men.

In your specific case, should your Ex have felt particularly jaded afterwards (especially after being told to fuck off) what would have legally prevented her from filing a rape charge against you under the pretense of you getting drunk, going over, and forcing yourself on her other than your word? (obviously i know nothing of the details)

As far as you claim you simply had drunken (yet regrettable) sex together, but if it were brought up legally this becomes much harder to prove.

While i personally wouldn't call drunken sex Rape as others have pointed out it devalues the victims of actual rape, legally someone could very well attempt to claim it was in court.

I believe Archi originally said it best, don't have random drunken sex with people you don't know / trust that this could ever happen with.

[Lyall]

The reality of it is that nothing could have stopped her from doing exactly that. I didn't outright offend her by literally telling her to fuck off but basically made it clear that wouldn't be happening again, etc, but I couldn't do anything if she decided to turn her story into "he got drunk and raped me."

This horrifies the living shit out of me.

I wouldn't say I was coerced, not exactly, but I was drinking and she knew all of the right things to say and places to touch. She clearly wanted it and it happened, eventually.

I still don't see myself as a victim or anything. It just makes me aghast that, according to the past couple pages, I am a Rape Survivor? That infuriates me. Even while drinking I admit responsibility - I could have left, I could have stopped drinking, could have done anything else - but I didn't. Is the patriarchy forcing me to refuse to be the victim here? Am I downplaying a "serious crime?" And to repeat, the notion that if properly spurned she could have gone to the cops and completely ruined my life is horrifying.

Nobody should ever sleep with anybody. Everyone into hermetically sealed bubbles. Fuck this.

[Charismatic]

Nobody should ever sleep with anybody. Everyone into hermetically sealed bubbles. Fuck this.

Well, not normally... but I've got the solution!

[Aoshi]

No, considering your case i wouldn't consider yourself to be a "Rape Survivor".

I think the past few pages kind of blurred the lines a bit when it came down to that, sometimes people tend to forget that in between the strict legal sense there is still room for human error and poor judgement. The catch however is the fact that our (at least in the U.S.) legal system makes it very easy for legitimate errs in judgement to become a crime depending on who is painting the picture.

As far as male victims and drunken sex goes however, the truth unfortunately is that there are women out there who are looking to take advantage of guys who that they may not have had a chance with sober (guys do this to women all the time as well, we don't get a pass on this one) or in some extreme (and much less common) cases, women that are targeting wealthy men as "sperm donors" to abuse our system when it comes to child custody / support for money or in more common cases to keep Husbands / Boyfriends from leaving them.

In many of these cases men are just as susceptible as women when it comes to alcohol impairing their judgement or simply blacking out and being taken advantage of which would very well qualify them as having been sexually assaulted. And once again when two people are behind closed doors the lines begin to blur as to where consent can actually be given unless proof can somehow ( and not likely) be provided. The issue as I've said is simply the fact that men in many of these situations are less likely to be believed or protected legally, as opposed to women when bringing up the same claims.

[hey]

I wouldn't say I was coerced, not exactly, but I was drinking and she knew all of the right things to say and places to touch. She clearly wanted it and it happened, eventually.

That sure sounds like coercion to me.

I still don't see myself as a victim or anything. It just makes me aghast that, according to the past couple pages, I am a Rape Survivor? That infuriates me. Even while drinking I admit responsibility - I could have left, I could have stopped drinking, could have done anything else - but I didn't.

Sure, you could have. And if you were sober, it sounds like you would have. But you weren't sober. There's always a million things that you could have done differently to change the outcome. That doesn't make it your fault. She took advantage of you, knowing it would be easy because you were drunk.

Is the patriarchy forcing me to refuse to be the victim here? Am I downplaying a "serious crime?"

Yes, probably.

[Qalbert]

Having sex with someone who is drunk (assuming consent not established in advance) is wrong. Same as taking money from someone who is drunk. You are using their impaired state to your own advantage. idgaf what term you want to use, as far as I'm concerned it's still nonconsensual and therefore unacceptable.

[noblemountain]

I don't drink, so I am having trouble caring what you people are arguing about. Can we beat another dead horse so I can feel offended/validated?

[Waraji]

I don't murder people, but I feel a conversation about euthanasia is worth having.

[BaneTheBrawler]

Atleast the "all drunk sex is rape" bullshit is squashed finally, only took 5 pages.

lol

[NynJa]

I guess the fbi description of what they consider drunk rape wasnt good enough

Another 5 pages of moral duscussion inc