Feminism Thread

[NynJa]

Isnt date rape supposed to block short term memory? How did she all of a sudden remember that part? Sounds like she overdid it on the coke and xanax and booze.

[archibaldcrane]

If, as she said, he said he was using a condom then that's the condition under which she consented. Change the condition, you need new consent. Pretty simple concept.

[archibaldcrane]

Isnt date rape supposed to block short term memory?

Wut

[hey]

I wouldn't call her a bitch for kicking him off after she saw the raw dick, but if she didn't want to have sex she should have said no to begin with. Just because she got the courage to finally say no once she saw the raw dick does not make it rape when she was literally talking dirty to the guy to get him to fuck her.

If she said yes because she thought it was her boyfriend, but turns out it was actually her boyfriend's twin brother, that's rape. Consent was given based on lies, and therefore isn't real consent.

[NynJa]

Wut

http://oade.nd.edu/educate-yourself-...flunitrazepam/

Users have great difficulty remembering what happened while they were under the influence of the drug; it wipes the memory clean.

Because of the memory loss and confusion under the influence of this drug, rape cases are difficult to prosecute. Recently, screening for Rohypnol has improved.

so yeah, Rohypnol prevents short term memory.

[archibaldcrane]

...

I don't even know where to begin.

[Milkster]

That story sounds really fucking hard to believe.

[NynJa]

...

I don't even know where to begin.

ok, lets start with this part

Just recently Lena Dunham (HBO's Girls) came out with memoir where she recounts how she was date rapped.

I guess youre right, she was rapped to on her date. Or perhaps you're a date rape expert and know best.

[archibaldcrane]

"Date rape" does not mean you were drugged. It means, literally, being raped by someone you are on a date with, or colloquially (in this case) a person who you are willingly in an intimate situation with but where they go further than you consent to.

[archibaldcrane]

Here you dumb canuck. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape

[Salodin]

The point I was making is, communication is key. If shes thinking "nonono" but saying "Fuck me, fuck me, fuck me", how is a man to know this with out her saying so? From the example given, at no point was the man to think "Ok, this is actually rape now" up until the point where she kicks him off her.

[quannum]

according to the last several pages, they should both be in jail now, correct?

[Xno Kappa]

Story doesn't have enough detail to define "forcing himself" on her. Also doesn't elaborate whether or not he completely stopped once she verbally and physically disclosed she no longer was a willing participant. The condom bit would go nowhere in court. It's not illegal to be a douchebag.

[hey]

The point I was making is, communication is key. If shes thinking "nonono" but saying "Fuck me, fuck me, fuck me", how is a man to know this with out her saying so? From the example given, at no point was the man to think "Ok, this is actually rape now" up until the point where she kicks him off her.

If you take a condom out, make sure she sees it, then don't put it on, you can't claim you didn't know.

[archibaldcrane]

Story doesn't have enough detail to define "forcing himself" on her. Also doesn't elaborate whether or not he completely stopped once she verbally and physically disclosed she no longer was a willing participant. The condom bit would go nowhere in court. It's not illegal to be a douchebag.

He'd get off because she was fucked up and he'd have a very easy time lying, but I think if he was honest and said "she said yes when I pulled out the condom, but I hate using them so I tricked her and removed it so I could fuck her bareback without her knowing" there's a decent shot a charge could stick.

[Ksandra]

He'd get off because she was fucked up and he'd have a very easy time lying, but I think if he was honest and said "she said yes when I pulled out the condom, but I hate using them so I tricked her and removed it so I could fuck her bareback without her knowing" there's a decent shot a charge could stick.

Are you sure about that?

Honest question, no snark. I have seen so many incidents where like a woman claims to be on the pill but lied to get pregnant, and the guy has no recourse. I can't imagine it's different with a condom.

Have you seen cases to suggest otherwise?

[Koul]

If I agree to have sex with a dude and then when we're in the middle of it, he starts making weird sex sounds that turn me off and make me uncomfortable am I then being raped? Or what if I agree to fuck a dude and it turns out his dick is too small for my liking yet I feel pressured/ashamed to back out of it. Was I raped? Or when I talked this 20 yr old to let me give him a bj. Did I rape him? He wasn't really feeling it but with my dirty talk managed to get him to roll with it.

[BaneTheBrawler]

[Marootsoobutsu]

That story sounds really fucking hard to believe.

It shouldn't?

People who are mugged once are likely to be mugged multiple times until they change something about themselves-- predators go for easy looking marks. Posture, the way people walk, how much attention they're paying, etc...

Rapists tend to do the same (and most rapists are repeatists). People who are vulnerable, who are unsure, who are passive, who seem easily intimidated or easily confused. I do support groups, and I've been both counseled and a counselor, and there are a LOT of people-- especially women-- who have been so hugely pressured and/or intimidated, that they were scared for their life if they refused too hard. Most of them said "no" or offered no encouragement, but the guy kept going. At that point, a lot of them pretended to "be into it", because they were afraid for their safety, or they thought that somehow they deserved what was happening, or that they said or did something that sounded like a yes (when they had actively resisted at first or said "No."). This is rather especially common in date rape or drugged/drunk-rape.

I have zero difficulty in believing her story. People can have different stages of fear-- points where the fight-or-flight goes passive (flight), and levels or circumstances that trigger the fight. It sounds like she reached a point that hit that switch for her, and the guy wasn't interested in a fight; he was just going for someone he thought would be passive and a pushover.


There are definitely a lot of reasons that a lot of that can get really fuzzy: I believe that someone can do a horrible thing (rape someone), but not be a horrible person. There are women who want to be pursued/persuaded/wooed; about the only hard part in our marriage was me getting to that point, because she would always say "no" or "not now" and I would stop and respect that. It took a lot of talking before we came to the point where I understood that's what she had always expected, and that's what she wanted: that was her turn on; it made her feel special and wanted. And there are a fair number of women out there who are like that-- I have no idea exactly what percentage, if it's a minority or a majority, or what. And this is kind of problematic, because some guys would never be violent or force someone if they knew it was really a "No," they think they're just engaging in foreplay, and they hit a button and she got into it, when she hasn't. She is still traumatized, and he honestly believes that he has given her exactly what she wants.

That passiveness, that confusion-- where both people are telling the God's-honest truth-- and the fact that a lot of rapes take place when people are drunk and/or high, is a lot of the difficulty in proving rape, and a lot of what makes the topic so volatile. Stories are so hard to piece together.

The point I was making is, communication is key. If shes thinking "nonono" but saying "Fuck me, fuck me, fuck me", how is a man to know this with out her saying so? From the example given, at no point was the man to think "Ok, this is actually rape now" up until the point where she kicks him off her.

And this is where all of that becomes problematic. The rapist *doesn't* know.

All you married dudes, or long-term-relationship-dudes, chime in: how often have you gotten in trouble for something that she never told you she wanted, but you didn't pick up on "all of the obvious signs"? Not all women are that way, but it's, I think, a common enough experience that most of us have either been there, or know someone who has. Especially in more passive women.

No where near most, but there are a lot of women I have spoken with, or heard their stories... they blame themselves, and they should. That sounds super callous, but sometimes, it's true-- they thought they were screaming "no" with their body language, and he should have caught it, but she never said a damned thing. This is especially common in women who have been raped more than once; like I said before, there is a "type" that is more common than others. They never said "No." They *did* say "yes"-- but they did so out of fear (often, but not always, unnecessary), and sometimes, because an early experience *DID* turn forceful on a "no", and now they figure that if they resist, all guys are going to get violent.

The topic is incredibly emotionally charged, and so freaking complex. People are hard to peg down and understand under the clearest of situations, and sex is far from the clearest of situations.

[hey]

Honest question, no snark. I have seen so many incidents where like a woman claims to be on the pill but lied to get pregnant, and the guy has no recourse. I can't imagine it's different with a condom.

Can we stop using the lack of enforcement for rape, particularly for men, as an argument that something isn't rape? Rape is hard to prove, so it isn't enforced well, and for men, 95%+ of people don't give a shit at all. That doesn't make it okay.

If I agree to have sex with a dude and then when we're in the middle of it, he starts making weird sex sounds that turn me off and make me uncomfortable am I then being raped?

Only if you ask him to stop and he doesn't.

Or what if I agree to fuck a dude and it turns out his dick is too small for my liking yet I feel pressured/ashamed to back out of it. Was I raped?

Probably not, but maybe if you felt strongly that you had no choice.

Or when I talked this 20 yr old to let me give him a bj. Did I rape him? He wasn't really feeling it but with my dirty talk managed to get him to roll with it.

No...