Feminism Thread

[Gokku]

She doesn't actually say this.

The Hitman example is a treatise on objectification at a very basic level. Every person, man or woman, in a Hitman game is an object useful for cover, a distraction, or as a means to an end, so in a way every person that isn't your target or an auto-fail state in Hitman is in the same boat. The 'cannot help but treat as things' phrasing is a clumsy way to say it but that's what she's saying. It probably falls flat to say one is meant to derive perverse pleasure but I laughed my ass off the first time I stomped a guy's head in in GTA 3, so maybe there's something to it. Hitman is certainly if nothing else a game built around trial and error puzzle solving, so no doubt more than one person went into the dressing room thinking, 'hey what happens if I do X to these helpless, cowering strippers?' As this is an exercise in deconstructing how game designers build their worlds, it's not above pointing out that such designs are a conscious act by a group of people making a video game in a genre known for catering to casual sociopathy. That's where sandbox games get their appeal, after all. Give no fucks, blow everything up. Who doesn't like Just Cause?

by that same token you could make a neo nazi video with butthurt nazi's complaining about how many of there men women and children are mercilessly slaughtered in game after game, Its a stawman cop-out to claim that.As when everything is viewed in context it makes actually sense. she notes in the video, you have a hitman game where you CAN use a dead hookers body to startle a cop or a guard. Well yea if i or pretty much anyone was a cop/guard and *pokemon battle music* A WILD DEAD HOOKER APPEARS! it would startle me to.

And do note i understand the "Sociopathy" in just cause / saints row / gta etc. But the shit is FUN , i would never run down the street nakied with a purple teddybear backpack slapping people with a huge purple dildo bat in reality. its still fun and funny as hell to do in saints row even if its for 30 secs and your laughing and rolling your eyes its fun.

[Jefe]

GAME OVER, YOU MOUTH-BREATHING-NECKBEARDS!

[Correction]

It's not a strawman at all to point out the most common fate of strippers in the media, including video games, is to get maimed, murdered or otherwise debased. I also don't buy that the message of these videos is that people will play Hitman, kill a stripper and then want to become a psychopath. At this stage I'm not sure what your point is.

[quannum]

everything in hitman is an object to be interacted upon by the protagonist. are you expecting a backstory or agency? don't include strip clubs in media? if anita is pointing out a problem, what is the proposed solution either in hitman specifically or media in general?

and no im not saying a problem doesn't exist if a solution isn't also provided.

[Correction]

Media criticism doesn't really exist to enforce what's permissible and impermissible for creators, in reality that's 100% up to the producers themselves and by corollary, the consumers of said media. That's why I posted this column earlier.

what Sarkeesian is doing is standard pop culture criticism, of the kind that films and books have been subjected to for decades - and TvsWVG is pretty good. It’s thorough and accessible, and it’s both a good introduction to the concept of feminist cultural criticism and an example of the increasing respect that games receive as an artform. The world was a very tedious place when all people asked was whether games were art at all; now that we know that they are, in their place come both external critiques (which includes TvsWVG) and intelligent responses from the industry itself (such as Jonathan Blow’s Braid, a platformer which deconstructs the “damsel in distress” trope).

At best it raises awareness and adds to a body of work that hopefully grows in quality. Demanding that Anita or any critic provide a solution for the throwaway sexism present in popular videogames really isn't getting anybody anywhere. Ultimately there's no reason not to have brothels, prostitutes and dead women in video games any less than they are present in other forms of artistic expression. It's probably especially difficult to make game developers do anything about it since more often than not any sense of storytelling that might dull down the edge mowing down more sympathetic and less predictable gendered representation plays third fiddle to the masters of solid gameplay and meeting a deadline. I am more than content with raising awareness and making small steps in a positive direction via an inclusive dialogue, even if it never comes from AAA publishers (since who expects anything from them anyway).

Meanwhile play these games anyway, nobody's really trying to stop you and being aware of problematic fictional representations in your recreational media consumption shouldn't block your enjoyment of them. I do love me some old movies, never mind the casual racism/sexism that pervades them. By the same token I love me some sandbox video games and won't stop playing them until something really makes me bored from doing so.

[Mazmaz]

Surprise! Cyber Harassment: Yes, It is a Woman’s Thing

[Cliron]

A bit off topic now, but I've had an ethical grey zone question I've been mulling over for the last few weeks that's in the 'is it rape is it not rape?' vein.

Can a gay man ever give consent to being date raped?

Follow Mr. X, healthy/no psychopathology who wants to be penetrated while asleep/unconscious. Is there some process that he could go through for this to happen in a way where it isn't rape? E.g. Writes out explicit permission for it to happen while sober/ video log of consent or something showing that it is entirely voluntarily.

With our legal frameworks/ views on consent can this scenario ever happen without fear of the partner being convicted of rape? Does govt. have any right to interfere with personal volition when explicit consent is given before hand?

**I choose gay man because then you cannot draw upon gender power differentials.
*** I'm also not advocating a change of current frameworks for this incredibly improbably scenario, or trying to diminish actual rape where the person being raped does not consent. More, could this scenario occur, and should it be allowed to occur.

[Priran]

Surprise! SJWs don't actually play video games and their inability to vote with their wallets is showing.

Check out the journalistic integrity in that headline.

[Penthesilea]

It's not a strawman at all to point out the most common fate of strippers in the media, including video games, is to get maimed, murdered or otherwise debased. I also don't buy that the message of these videos is that people will play Hitman, kill a stripper and then want to become a psychopath. At this stage I'm not sure what your point is.

Why is having strippers in a game sexist? Is it because violence is done to them? Aren't a lot of these games about violence regardless of the target? Is Anita trying to suggest that we should ignore strippers, by not putting them into games where they fit the context or setting?

Hitman, while i've never played it, seems to deal with shady organized crime and taking out targets. Strippers and sex workers are unfortunately a large part of organized crime. So they fit context wise, and while it's a poor decision to kill them, its a sandbox game so it has to portray the reality that everyone is potentially mortal.

[Aoshi]

Why is having strippers in a game sexist? Is it because violence is done to them? Aren't a lot of these games about violence regardless of the target? Is Anita trying to suggest that we should ignore strippers, by not putting them into games where they fit the context or setting?

Hitman, while i've never played it, seems to deal with shady organized crime and taking out targets. Strippers and sex workers are unfortunately a large part of organized crime. So they fit context wise, and while it's a poor decision to kill them, its a sandbox game so it has to portray the reality that everyone is potentially mortal.

Essentially this,

I remember that level when i played through it myself tbh, you're in a strip club and like all Hitman games you actually have the option to complete the level without killing anyone except your target. In fact the way the strippers are often positioned in that level you would actually have to willingly go out of your way to kill them as they pose no threat and are easily avoidable 90% of the time.

[Jefe]

I shall avoid your question or any other arguments, and I'll proceed to ask you this instead:

Explain the bordello in BO2.

Spoiler: show

patriarchy

[Priran]

There was a scene in Saint's Row with a BDSM club where you escape on a horse cart pulled by men in gimp suits.

Spoiler: show

matriarchy

[BaneTheBrawler]

that sounds amazing, i think i need to add that to the backlog

[Karbuncle]

There was a scene in Saint's Row with a BDSM club where you escape on a horse cart pulled by men in gimp suits.

Spoiler: show

matriarchy

I'm glad I'm not the only one who remembers that.

[NynJa]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who remembers that.

The feminist supporters wont mention that though.

Spoiler: show

hypocrisy

[hey]

A bit off topic now, but I've had an ethical grey zone question I've been mulling over for the last few weeks that's in the 'is it rape is it not rape?' vein.

Can a gay man ever give consent to being date raped?

Follow Mr. X, healthy/no psychopathology who wants to be penetrated while asleep/unconscious. Is there some process that he could go through for this to happen in a way where it isn't rape? E.g. Writes out explicit permission for it to happen while sober/ video log of consent or something showing that it is entirely voluntarily.

With our legal frameworks/ views on consent can this scenario ever happen without fear of the partner being convicted of rape? Does govt. have any right to interfere with personal volition when explicit consent is given before hand?

**I choose gay man because then you cannot draw upon gender power differentials.
*** I'm also not advocating a change of current frameworks for this incredibly improbably scenario, or trying to diminish actual rape where the person being raped does not consent. More, could this scenario occur, and should it be allowed to occur.

Legally, no. Ethically, it's still pretty bad. Of course consent can be given in advance, and that makes it less bad, but the thing is, what if you change your mind (or would have, if you weren't drugged)? You won't be able to, and i think that's important. Also, considering you won't remember it, i have to wonder what the point is.

[Penthesilea]

Who is saying drugging is involved? I always love a nice blowjob/gf trying to get things going in the middle of the night.

I assume that's what he means by "alseep" and not actually under anything. Though didn't Mr Weave experience this and had his dick broke as a result?

[Meresgi]

Related to OP: http://fortune.com/2014/10/02/women-leave-tech-culture/

Was she a software developer? It mentions she was a project manager but managing what type of projects? If you're doing software development, 9 times out of 10 the company is going to treat you like shit because they know they can toss you out and hire in brand new graduates for less $$. It's not just the tech industry that is horrible to expectant mothers/new mothers, it's most jobs in the US as a whole. Don't most countries even give paternity leave as well coupled with maternity leave being a lot longer?

Literally 28 of the 30 people in our company were white, straight men under 35. I was the only woman. I was one of only two gay people. I was the only person of color other than one guy from Japan. My coworkers called me Halle Berry. As in, ‘Oh look, Halle Berry broke the website today.’ I’m pretty sure for some of them I’m the only actual black person they’ve ever spoken to. Everyone was the same, and no one was like me. How could I stay in that situation?

*Shrug* Leave then, yes it sucks but from my own experience in tech, we are all horribly sarcastic and abrasive but usually nothing is meant as being rude (though I know many who are). Calling her Halle Berry to me sounds like she probably looked similar to her (other then being just black lololol white people) and got that nickname. We have a guy which a horrible thick austrian accent who we call Arnold 24/7 because he's also huge.

I love coding. I have a masters in CS [computer science]. I worked in tech for two decades. So many women like me, so highly trained and for what? It was hard enough being the only woman on most projects. Try being the only woman over 40. Doesn’t matter how good you are, or even if your colleagues respect you. Eventually you get tired of being the odd duck. I took all my experience and started my own thing where I could make the rules. I’m never going back.

Over 40 and being a coder isn't going to work out well unless you go strict management at that point. Far far too many college grads to dump you for. Capitalism!

[Correction]

Why is having strippers in a game sexist? Is it because violence is done to them? Aren't a lot of these games about violence regardless of the target? Is Anita trying to suggest that we should ignore strippers, by not putting them into games where they fit the context or setting?

It's not sexist to have strippers in a video game. But when you see one, the odds of the NPC in question getting debased or murdered approaches 100%, usually in service of 'oh right bad guys kill/maim women' and little else. For better or worse, the trope is sexist. It's disingenuous to say it's done to make things seem more real because crime, it's a cheap and lazy device due to the nature and scope of its impact. The violence is seldom so real as to be disturbing (because that would be a buzzkill), and the reverberations of it are almost always immediately forgotten (because again, there's gameplay ahead). I'll restate that you're not to ignore strippers in games nor are game makers supposed to stop putting them in games.

[Meresgi]

It's not sexist to have strippers in a video game. But when you see one, the odds of the NPC in question getting debased or murdered approaches 100%

I want to say this is totally off base here. Granted the games i'm thinking of may be different, but anytime you came into contact with a stripper you could murder/debase them but the actual GAME didn't request it or even make it really a point to do it. Strippers in that Hitman mission can be killed and tossed around, but unless you're just doing stupid shit (which I did a few times) and gunning down the ENTIRE stripclub, there is no reason. It's a sandbox type deal, like GTA. You can kill the hookers if you want, but there's no real reason to do it at all, but yes it's there.