Feminism Thread

[Koul]

Nah not really. Only reason they're in the spotlight is because people can't ignore them. There are volumous and loud male voices in this debate too but none of them get a fraction of the oppositions attention like the women. Funny, since these women have little to no connection to the journalistic integrity problems that GG claims to care about.

Nah, not really. The reason they're in the spotlight is because trolls gunna troll and that somehow equals omg hate campaign forever and ever from gamergate (which threats were from GG again...? I can't seem to find it). Incoming 50 articles from major sites and on-air interviews about how evil misogynistic GG is. Of course the pro-GG people will then try and dispel those bullshit claims.

GG can't talk about what they stand for when they're constantly on the defensive trying to reaffirm what the movement ISN'T about (shitty sex negative 3rd wave feminism) thanks to shitty one-sided articles.

[Xajii]

Ok...but the problem is that the "trolling" makes up a vast majority of what the community posts about and does. In the rare instances where journalism actually does come into focus it is riddled with basic misunderstandings of journalism in general. Read the Globe writer's reddit comment and if you disagree then I'd like to hear why.

There is no cohesive message other than "we don't want politics in our games" and "games journalism sucks and does shitty things". To the first point, which is coming from the same crowd that swears games are art...you can't have your cake and eat it too. To the second point...no shit. But again no one seeks to really want to DO anything about the latter.

[Priran]

So that's a yes.

GG: "All these articles on the same day? You're all conspiring on this, aren't you?"
Journos: "We don't conspire."
GG: "One of you just leaked a secret group where you sit around and discuss whether to cover stories and how to shape narratives!"
Journos: "Innocent industry mailing list."
GG: "Now it turns out you used it to (illegally) blacklist a writer for publishing an article you ideologically disagreed with!"
Journos: ""

[Priran]

There is no cohesive message other than "we don't want politics in our games" and "games journalism sucks and does shitty things"....To the second point...no shit. But again no one seeks to really want to DO anything about the latter.

Actually yeah they do. That's the point of the boycotts and emails to advertisers, or to put it in anti-GG talk, the "campaign of harassment and censorship".

[Koul]

Ok...but the problem is that the "trolling" makes up a vast majority of what the community posts about and does. In the rare instances where journalism actually does come into focus it is riddled with basic misunderstandings of journalism in general. Read the Globe writer's reddit comment and if you disagree then I'd like to hear why.

There is no cohesive message other than "we don't want politics in our games" and "games journalism sucks and does shitty things". To the first point, which is coming from the same crowd that swears games are art...you can't have your cake and eat it too. To the second point...no shit. But again no one seeks to really want to DO anything about the latter.

Yes, they do address the trolling because it's being megaphoned by Anita and co. as misogyny. The cohesive and underlying message (that I get) from GG is for people in all aspects of the community to have some integrity with their gaming relationship. It's fine if you think Bayonetta is sexist or if Mortal Kombat is too violent for your tastes and if you want to vocalize your disdain go ahead but don't go around accusing everyone who enjoys it as violent sex crazed murderers. I can assure you that the majority of gamers just want to game. They don't care about gay marriage, woman issues, trans issues or any of that type of crap. People that feel that's what gaming should be and push that agenda on others are what the flak is and has been about.

People play games to escape real life. Not be reminded of how shitty it is and how many problems there are. But of course if I told someone like Anita womans issues can gtfo of my gaming because I want to escape the reality of womans issues, I'm a sexist pig.

[Karbuncle]

Yes, they do address the trolling because it's being megaphoned by Anita and co. as misogyny. The cohesive and underlying message (that I get) from GG is for people in all aspects of the community to have some integrity with their gaming relationship. It's fine if you think Bayonetta is sexist or if Mortal Kombat is too violent for your tastes and if you want to vocalize your disdain go ahead but don't go around accusing everyone who enjoys it as violent sex crazed murderers. I can assure you that the majority of gamers just want to game. They don't care about gay marriage, woman issues, trans issues or any of that type of crap. People that feel that's what gaming should be and push that agenda on others are what the flak is and has been about.

People play games to escape real life. Not be reminded of how shitty it is and how many problems there are. But of course if I told someone like Anita womans issues can gtfo of my gaming because I want to escape the reality of womans issues, I'm a sexist pig.

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/-...-this-post.png

[Mazmaz]

It's fine if you think Bayonetta is sexist or if Mortal Kombat is too violent for your tastes and if you want to vocalize your disdain go ahead but don't go around accusing everyone who enjoys it as violent sex crazed murderers.

Funny because Anita did nothing of the sort in her videos and people still sent her death threats and hate.

I can assure you that the majority of gamers just want to game. They don't care about gay marriage, woman issues, trans issues or any of that type of crap. People that feel that's what gaming should be and push that agenda on others are what the flak is and has been about.

So you just agreed that that's what GG is about, as the reporter said so. Why all this journalistic integrity bullshit?

People play games to escape real life. Not be reminded of how shitty it is and how many problems there are. But of course if I told someone like Anita womans issues can gtfo of my gaming because I want to escape the reality of womans issues, I'm a sexist pig.

You can escape that reality because you have the privilege of being able to escape those issues, unlike women. Why should gaming be the only medium of entertainment that gets a free pass from criticisms and reform? Christ can you imagine how shitty movies would be if women's roles were still background decorations like in 40's? And how shitty music would be if it was about black people eating watermelons like in the 20's?

Let's talk about what we're all thinking. You're man-children that want things your way, or no way.

[Mazmaz]

The cohesive and underlying message (that I get) from GG is for people in all aspects of the community to have some integrity with their gaming relationship.

Kinda like how Christians in all aspects of community to have integrity with their marital relationships. That's why gays should stay the fuck out of marriage right?

Congrats, you're officially on the wrong side of history.

[Priran]

Congrats, you're officially on the wrong side of history.

You could not more finely distill the essence of a SJW. Just some thoroughly average asshole preoccupied with acting like the self-appointed boss of everybody else, fueled by a smug sense of self-righteousness. Congrats, you are the coworker who leaves passive-aggressive sticky notes on everything.

Someone double-check this for me but I believe the rough breakdown of how often the person on the "right side of history" is the one parading around proclaiming how righteous they are is approx. never.

[Gokku]

You could not more finely distill the essence of a SJW. Just some thoroughly average asshole preoccupied with acting like the self-appointed boss of everybody else, fueled by a smug sense of self-righteousness. Congrats, you are the coworker who leaves passive-aggressive sticky notes on everything.

Someone double-check this for me but I believe the rough breakdown of how often the person on the "right side of history" is the one parading around proclaiming how righteous they are is approx. never.

Putin ...

[Xajii]

Actually yeah they do. That's the point of the boycotts and emails to advertisers, or to put it in anti-GG talk, the "campaign of harassment and censorship".

Like I wrote before, this is all just childish clawing at the couch. The fuck y'all think you're gonna do with this? In a super fantasy world you'd drain these sites of their advertisers and then what? No one is actually proposing to create a legitimate resource for objective reporting and conflict of interest-free reviews. They just want to tear shit down. That is classic occupy wall street-level shit.

Yes, they do address the trolling because it's being megaphoned by Anita and co. as misogyny. The cohesive and underlying message (that I get) from GG is for people in all aspects of the community to have some integrity with their gaming relationship. It's fine if you think Bayonetta is sexist or if Mortal Kombat is too violent for your tastes and if you want to vocalize your disdain go ahead but don't go around accusing everyone who enjoys it as violent sex crazed murderers. I can assure you that the majority of gamers just want to game. They don't care about gay marriage, woman issues, trans issues or any of that type of crap. People that feel that's what gaming should be and push that agenda on others are what the flak is and has been about.

People play games to escape real life. Not be reminded of how shitty it is and how many problems there are. But of course if I told someone like Anita womans issues can gtfo of my gaming because I want to escape the reality of womans issues, I'm a sexist pig.

See this is just silly. You don't want politics out of your games, you want certain politics out of your games. No one is complaining when games have anti-war messages, messages about slavery or genocide, politics about environmental ethics, or any of hte host of other "adult themes" found in games all over the industry.

Sorry but having women wear normal outfits and behave in non-stereotyped, independent ways does not remind anyone of how SHITTY THE WORLD IS unless they're terrible people. Nor does including gay characters or any of the other "political" things these people seem to be rallying against as a hamfisted movement by "SJWs".

Asking for women's issues to be removed from gaming so that you can escape the reality of women's issues is like playing a rape simulator so you can escape the fact that you can't rape people in real life. I don't even know where to begin with if that's your argument.

Anita's videos are shit, and she's not a really positive influence on the industry, but the fact remains that the basic topic she addresses is worth discussing, and attacking her because you "don't want politics in games" is tantamount to not wanting women's issues to be addressed in games, and yes, that is misogyny.

[Kuya]

I think priran, koul, nynja and all the others should start a new thread about GG and see how long they can keep themselves from complaining about feminists.

[Kuya]

Yes, they do address the trolling because it's being megaphoned by Anita and co. as misogyny. The cohesive and underlying message (that I get) from GG is for people in all aspects of the community to have some integrity with their gaming relationship. It's fine if you think Bayonetta is sexist or if Mortal Kombat is too violent for your tastes and if you want to vocalize your disdain go ahead but don't go around accusing everyone who enjoys it as violent sex crazed murderers. I can assure you that the majority of gamers just want to game. They don't care about gay marriage, woman issues, trans issues or any of that type of crap. People that feel that's what gaming should be and push that agenda on others are what the flak is and has been about.

People play games to escape real life. Not be reminded of how shitty it is and how many problems there are. But of course if I told someone like Anita womans issues can gtfo of my gaming because I want to escape the reality of womans issues, I'm a sexist pig.

Wait, so what do you mean by "what the flak is and has been about"? Are you talking about GG's agenda? Priran told me it's not about feminism.

[Lyall]

See this is just silly. You don't want politics out of your games, you want certain politics out of your games. No one is complaining when games have anti-war messages, messages about slavery or genocide, politics about environmental ethics, or any of hte host of other "adult themes" found in games all over the industry.

Sorry but having women wear normal outfits and behave in non-stereotyped, independent ways does not remind anyone of how SHITTY THE WORLD IS unless they're terrible people. Nor does including gay characters or any of the other "political" things these people seem to be rallying against as a hamfisted movement by "SJWs".

Asking for women's issues to be removed from gaming so that you can escape the reality of women's issues is like playing a rape simulator so you can escape the fact that you can't rape people in real life. I don't even know where to begin with if that's your argument.

Anita's videos are shit, and she's not a really positive influence on the industry, but the fact remains that the basic topic she addresses is worth discussing, and attacking her because you "don't want politics in games" is tantamount to not wanting women's issues to be addressed in games, and yes, that is misogyny.

Anyone asking for the removal of these issues from the games themselves is pants-on-head retarded. What I've seen people asking for is the politics to be removed from the review process. Bayonetta 2 got docked points for showing skin. No one gives a shit if the reviewer feels tittywitch has too much titty in her witch. Make a separate clickbait article for that, but unless you're marking down Halo and Call of Duty for showing wanton wartime slaughter, people need to let go of agendas in gaming commentary. Discuss their messages all you like, just don't make "morality" a precedent for scoring something.

[Kuya]

By the way Xajii, i love the link you posted. Sums up my feelings nicely:

This has happened over and over and over again (I also looked into the 8chan board and some other “approved” places). As a journalist trying to be fair-minded about this, you can't fucking win. If I'm arguing with someone from the NRA or the NAACP or some other established group, I can point to actual quotes from the group's leadership. With you guys, any bad thing that happens is, by definition, not the work of A True GamerGater. It's one of the oldest logical fallacies in the book.

So what is GamerGate “really” about? I think this is the kinda question a philosopher of language would tear apart and scatter the remnants of to the wind, because it lacks any real referent. You guys refuse to appoint a leader or write up a platform or really do any of the things real-life, adult “movements” do. I’d argue that there isn’t really any such thing as GamerGate, because any given manifestation of it can be torn down as, again, No True GamerGate by anyone who disagrees with it. And who gets to decide what is and isn’t True GamerGate? You can’t say you want a decentralized, anonymous movement and then disown the ugly parts that inevitably pop up. Either everything is in, or everything is out

.This is also a response i've been getting in this thread. Whenever something related to anti-feminism, death and rape threats show up, we're told it's either a minority or a black flag by SJW. No true scottsman all the way up the nostrils in here.

You guys know as well as I do that a movement based on the stated goal of regaining gaming ground lost to feminists and (ugh) SJWs would not do very well from a PR perspective. But you’re in a bind, because the ethics charges are 1) 98% false; 2) complicated to follow for the layperson; and 3) pretty clearly a ruse given the underlying ideology of the folks pushing this line forward.

Pretty much. The problem with the people defending GG in this thread is that no more than 10 pages ago we have them bashing feminism until they're blue in the face. Some of these same people were also complaining about the term cisgender and trans identities. They then expect us not to make connections when they're the same damn people, in this very same thread.

It's a shame too. I do think ethics in gaming journalism is important, but as it stands this supposed movement is too tainted by anti-feminism and i'm not going to join that bullshit.

http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInActi...boston/cldrqeu

[Charismatic]

Anyone asking for the removal of these issues from the games themselves is pants-on-head retarded. What I've seen people asking for is the politics to be removed from the review process. Bayonetta 2 got docked points for showing skin. No one gives a shit if the reviewer feels tittywitch has too much titty in her witch. Make a separate clickbait article for that, but unless you're marking down Halo and Call of Duty for showing wanton wartime slaughter, people need to let go of agendas in gaming commentary. Discuss their messages all you like, just don't make "morality" a precedent for scoring something.

While I partially agree with this, I don't think it should have anything to do with GamerGate. I'd also like to reiterate I also only partially agree.
Qalbert's feeling that they should be able to write whatever they want but do away with the review score is more in line with what I think is ideal but I don't think that will ever happen. Barring that, I don't feel like things like titty witch showing too much titty should have a real notable impact on the score when weighted against the rest of the experience. Video games are a unique medium, unlike movies, there's gameplay and mechanics to deal with and (I believe) they should be the major focus at all times with story/presentation and stuff being secondary or tertiary.

That's just one man's opinion though.

[Kibble]

That reddit post really is awesome. I've been visiting KotakuInAction for a few days now trying to get a grasp on what GG is really about, and I can't remember how many times I've seen somebody mention SJW's agenda or the LWs.

While I partially agree with this, I don't think it should have anything to do with GamerGate. I'd also like to reiterate I also only partially agree.
Qalbert's feeling that they should be able to write whatever they want but do away with the review score is more in line with what I think is ideal but I don't think that will ever happen. Barring that, I don't feel like things like titty witch showing too much titty should have a real notable impact on the score when weighted against the rest of the experience. Video games are a unique medium, unlike movies, there's gameplay and mechanics to deal with and (I believe) they should be the major focus at all times with story/presentation and stuff being secondary or tertiary.

That's just one man's opinion though.

The problem with this is that if you see video games as art then they should be getting art critiques not the product reviews that you want.

[Charismatic]

I don't see video games as art and I don't care about that.

As an example, this is a video game.




The game is fun as hell and on the merits of its gameplay and mechanics, it is VERY strong. It does not masquerade as art. It shoves boobs, butt and good gameplay all up in your face and is just a good time. Again, this is a video game. I do not believe this is art.
Video games surely can be artistic but that is definitely not the goal of all video game creators. I'm pretty sure they weren't trying to do anything fancy with Bayonetta 2.

[Xajii]

So, let's pretend the Bayonetta 2 review is an example of what GG cares about. I say "pretend", because it isn't. It's a blip on the radar that came into focus well after the fact and got morphed into a talking point because it ever so tangentially relates tot he topics at hand. Nonetheless, let's pretend it is important. What are the issues?

1. Major gaming website reviews have an impact on consumer purchases.
2. A major gaming website incorporated feminist issues into their review.

Ok, but if you look at the actual review, everything except the final score and the sexism talking points give a glowing review of the game. It is the consumer's responsibility to read the review and decide for themselves, and if they do even a cursory skim of the Polygon piece, they'll see that this particular reviewer only docks points for sexism issues. If the consumer cares about that issue, they'll take it into account; if they don't, they'll ignore it.

The only party that you're trying to protect by attacking this kind of review is the mouth breather who clicks Polygon's review, scrolls down to the final score of 7.5 and says "NOT GOOD ENOUGH" then moves on. Is that really the kind of consumer that needs to be protected from the big bad SJWs here? Are we really that empty-minded as a community?

A lot of reviews heavily weight graphics into their scores. As a consumer, I could give a fuck about graphics. It is not an important issue to me. Nonetheless, final review numbers reflect graphics more often than not. It's my responsibility to read the review and determine that.

[NynJa]

I think priran, koul, nynja and all the others should start a new thread about GG and see how long they can keep themselves from complaining about feminists.

Im part of that because i think anita is an attention starved whore who has been proven to fabricate bullshit to keep the pity party spotlight on her?