Feminism Thread

[Kuya]

I think what sort of triggers alarms in my head is the term "co-opting spaces" by SJW or inclusivity advocates. It sounds like wanting to create space for women and lgbt people in those spaces, but I was under the impression nobody here disagreed with that. So i'd like some clarification on what that means. Without clarification, the term SJW as a pejorative sounds like the term pc politics used pejoratively by conservatives to complain about t\he fact that they're no longer allowed to bash black people or bash gay people in public without fear of repercussions for said hate speech. In the case of the latter, the term is a dog whistle.

[Charismatic]

I think what sort of triggers alarms in my head is the term "co-opting spaces" by SJW or inclusivity advocates. It sounds like wanting to create space for women and lgbt people in those spaces, but I was under the impression nobody here disagreed with that. So i'd like some clarification on what that means. Without clarification, the term SJW as a pejorative sounds like the term pc politics used pejoratively by conservatives to complain about t\he fact that they're no longer allowed to bash black people or bash gay people in public without fear of repercussions for said hate speech. In the case of the latter, the term is a dog whistle.

I don't see how this is difficult to understand. Its not simply that they are coming into Rome and not doing as the Romans do but rather suggesting that the Romans do as they do instead while also being shrill, confrontational and condescending.

I mean, why would anyone ever be angry about that?

[Kuya]

Well, see, in the case of the atheist example that was mentioned earlier: the woman who was complaining was an atheist. She is also roman. She was simply trying to bring up a perspective that tends to get ignored in some atheist circles because they tend to be populated by male atheists rather than female ones. Not that i'm agreeing with what some feminist atheists said during that issue. I think there was plenty they got wrong, but as atheists who are also feminists they had every right to bring up the issue of more inclusivity and more female perspectives on atheism.

Similarly, if a feminist gamer wants to bring up the issue about female inclusivity in games, she has every right to. She isn't co-opting anything. She is part of the very community she wants to change. She is simply asking for more representation of her gender in the very community she participates in. Much like gay people asking to get married isnt co-opting anything. Gay people are part of the very society they participate in and thus have every right to demand the same rights.

I'm not sure if Anita is a gamer, but I have heard her claim she's played various games. I'm not very interested in debating her specific credentials though. The Escapist has a good few female feminist gamers though.

[Qalbert]

I think the issue as has been said is certainly in part due to tone. A lot of SJWs (especially on twitter and tumblr) use 'ironic' language in a way that is still annoying and they use the 'oh I'm being ironic' defense, or 'I don't really mean it' even though if you said that about a sexist/racist/rape joke you'd be burnt at the stake. Like I get the concept of 'punching up' being ok relative to 'punching down' but even as someone who supports the basic ideas of being as inclusive and friendly as possible I find it frustrating to see the more extreme SJWs posting stuff like "kill all men" "fuck gamers" and so on. Ironic or not stooping to that level of petty childish statements/insults/whatever doesn't help. Desiring more inclusivity is the moral high ground here, using hateful language, ironically or otherwise, just muddies it up and makes it easier for people to dismiss the whole thing as "PC police" and people trying to "co-opt" stuff/destroy it. Hard to say SJWs don't want to change gaming when they say shit like "BURN GAMING TO THE GROUND" "ALL GAMERS ARE SHIT" etc.

[Teryu]

The thing for me is that a lot of SJW are just as, if not more, racist and bigoted than the people they claim are oppressing them.

[Qalbert]

also a bit late but re: the 'rape' in Tomb Raider being a 'power moment'. Ignoring the fact that it was just a guy vaguely caressing her for a second or two, the idea of 'rape survival' making a 'strong female character' is lazy writing, on the level of a male character's wife/gf/family being killed. It may be effective, but it's incredibly lazy and cliche, and downright offensive to some people. There are plenty of other ways to develop a strong character without resorting to that kind of nonsense, and unless it's contexualized really well it just comes across as schlocky and cheap.

[Xajii]

@ Kuya -

To me it's part tone but it's also the fact that a large majority of these people are just as ridiculous in the other direction. The following are examples of what the "SJWs" do that makes me feel uncomfortable towards them in my eyes:

1. They've decided there is a problem, so instead of finding issues as they come up, they look for issues and look for things to get offended about. This leads to a lot of stretching, assumptions, misinterpretations, and willful ignornace in order to drive home a point that could be driven home more sensibly.
2. This brings me to my second point - they seem to condescend the opposition to the point where they're convinced moderate, reasonable discussion is ineffective, so they HAVE to be extremist and over-the-top. This is not a good way of beginning discourse or facilitating change; it marginalizes them and makes it easy for their detractors to write them off.
3. Ad hominem, brigading, and sweeping generalizations are huge among this crowd. The SJW community at large has determined that as soon as a person says something that goes against their perception of what "social justice" should be, they become evil, scum, worthless, irredeemable. It's very sad, really.

I'm all for a more modern approach to gender, sex, race, social status, and so on in gaming and in the world overall. I agree with the basic message of many "SJW". The community itself is fucking terrible, though.

[Charismatic]

I'm not sure if Anita is a gamer, but I have heard her claim she's played various games.

Don't take my word for it. Take hers.

[Kuya]

I think the issue as has been said is certainly in part due to tone. A lot of SJWs (especially on twitter and tumblr) use 'ironic' language in a way that is still annoying and they use the 'oh I'm being ironic' defense, or 'I don't really mean it' even though if you said that about a sexist/racist/rape joke you'd be burnt at the stake. Like I get the concept of 'punching up' being ok relative to 'punching down' but even as someone who supports the basic ideas of being as inclusive and friendly as possible I find it frustrating to see the more extreme SJWs posting stuff like "kill all men" "fuck gamers" and so on. Ironic or not stooping to that level of petty childish statements/insults/whatever doesn't help. Desiring more inclusivity is the moral high ground here, using hateful language, ironically or otherwise, just muddies it up and makes it easier for people to dismiss the whole thing as "PC police" and people trying to "co-opt" stuff/destroy it. Hard to say SJWs don't want to change gaming when they say shit like "BURN GAMING TO THE GROUND" "ALL GAMERS ARE SHIT" etc.

I agree. More progressive people need to police that shit.

[Kuya]

@ Kuya -

To me it's part tone but it's also the fact that a large majority of these people are just as ridiculous in the other direction. The following are examples of what the "SJWs" do that makes me feel uncomfortable towards them in my eyes:

1. They've decided there is a problem, so instead of finding issues as they come up, they look for issues and look for things to get offended about. This leads to a lot of stretching, assumptions, misinterpretations, and willful ignornace in order to drive home a point that could be driven home more sensibly.
2. This brings me to my second point - they seem to condescend the opposition to the point where they're convinced moderate, reasonable discussion is ineffective, so they HAVE to be extremist and over-the-top. This is not a good way of beginning discourse or facilitating change; it marginalizes them and makes it easy for their detractors to write them off.
3. Ad hominem, brigading, and sweeping generalizations are huge among this crowd. The SJW community at large has determined that as soon as a person says something that goes against their perception of what "social justice" should be, they become evil, scum, worthless, irredeemable. It's very sad, really.

I'm all for a more modern approach to gender, sex, race, social status, and so on in gaming and in the world overall. I agree with the basic message of many "SJW". The community itself is fucking terrible, though.

Agreed. Often feminists say the tone argument is a fallacy and a distraction but it doesn't change the fact that tone is part of strategy. Public relations. Since these SJW seem to be primarily an internet phenomenon, it doesn't surprise me that they don't understand the value of public relations nor the thin line between public and private speech on the internet.

[Salodin]

also a bit late but re: the 'rape' in Tomb Raider being a 'power moment'. Ignoring the fact that it was just a guy vaguely caressing her for a second or two, the idea of 'rape survival' making a 'strong female character' is lazy writing, on the level of a male character's wife/gf/family being killed. It may be effective, but it's incredibly lazy and cliche, and downright offensive to some people. There are plenty of other ways to develop a strong character without resorting to that kind of nonsense, and unless it's contexualized really well it just comes across as schlocky and cheap.

Nah, not like she didn't stop undead? samurai warriors and a dead princess from being revived and destroying the world or nothing. None of that contributed to her becoming a strong woman.

I know you're not saying this, but when people use that scene or that game to push their feminist agenda I just eye roll and move on.

[Not Kuno]

The kill all men thing always makes me scratch my head. Are people who say that pro Darren Wilson?

[Kibble]

Don't take my word for it. Take hers.

A 4 year old, edited, out of context clip isn't the most damning evidence.

[Charismatic]

You don't need extra context for someone flat out saying "I am not a fan of video games." That's quite literally the whole of the point.
You cannot be a gamer and also not a fan of video games.

Even if you ignore everything I just said here, the annotations link to the full video.
Watch it if you want to, nothing changes. Don't just be lazy like this. It doesn't take much to click a link that is right in your face.

[Priran]

I think what sort of triggers alarms in my head is the term "co-opting spaces" by SJW or inclusivity advocates. It sounds like wanting to create space for women and lgbt people in those spaces, but I was under the impression nobody here disagreed with that. So i'd like some clarification on what that means. Without clarification, the term SJW as a pejorative sounds like the term pc politics used pejoratively by conservatives to complain about t\he fact that they're no longer allowed to bash black people or bash gay people in public without fear of repercussions for said hate speech. In the case of the latter, the term is a dog whistle.

When they say they want a space in x what they really mean is they want to make x entirely about social justice and kick out anybody who disagrees. This is where if I weren't on mobile I'd post a link to the lead writer for Borderlands, Anthony Burch, saying that it's okay to make a story worse for the sake of serving social justice. Or neogaf instabanning for positive mentions of GG.

[Xajii]

When they say they want a space in x what they really mean is they want to make x entirely about social justice and kick out anybody who disagrees. This is where if I weren't on mobile I'd post a link to the lead writer for Borderlands, Anthony Burch, saying that it's okay to make a story worse for the sake of serving social justice. Or neogaf instabanning for positive mentions of GG.

Sorry, but asking games to treat women better doesn't make them entirely about social justice. You're morphing the narrative to fit your opinions just as much as SJWs are. Be better than that.

[Blubbartron]

You don't need extra context for someone flat out saying "I am not a fan of video games." That's quite literally the whole of the point.
You cannot be a gamer and also not a fan of video games.

Even if you ignore everything I just said here, the annotations link to the full video.
Watch it if you want to, nothing changes. Don't just be lazy like this. It doesn't take much to click a link that is right in your face.

Remember that thing I said about how SJW's mimic the behavior of devout religious folks? Yeah. It's happening right here in front of us. You can't reason with unreasonable people. No amount of evidence will change his mind, even when it's the head of his church, saying in her own words that she doesn't give a fuck about gaming.

[Priran]

Sorry, but asking games to treat women better doesn't make them entirely about social justice. You're morphing the narrative to fit your opinions just as much as SJWs are. Be better than that.

I'm not exclusively talking about gaming. Look at Atheism Plus.

[Qalbert]

Nah, not like she didn't stop undead? samurai warriors and a dead princess from being revived and destroying the world or nothing. None of that contributed to her becoming a strong woman.

Yeah, that's exactly my point, (not that there really even was a rape plot point) is that she didn't NEED it. She was already becoming a strong character in her fight just to survive on the island in the face of weather, wildlife, gun-toting bad guys, and then mystical shit. There are plenty of ways to make strong characters that don't involve either a) killing a woman they love, or b) having a female character faced with or surviving rape. Not to mention those two scenarios are almost entirely gender specific. I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but I can't think of many female characters who become strong in response to someone killing their boyfriend. Even less male characters getting stronger from rape related situations. Like I said it's just lazy and shows a lack of imagination/effort, it's the 'easy' way to do things. It can be done effectively, in some cases, but more often than not it's just dumb/bad writing.

[Charismatic]

I can't think of many female characters who become strong in response to someone killing their boyfriend.

To be fair, I bet you can't think of many (if any) in real life either. That's not how women tend to operate. Men are far more likely to try to take revenge into their own hands if their loved ones are wronged.
Makes sense that it would be similar in video games. Not to say this is a good thing or that that's any excuse but for the scenarios to mirror real life doesn't really seem all that crazy to me.