Feminism Thread

**BerenTebogo** · 2014-10-23 14:23

Not really relevant to the discussion at hand that has been going on for 30 pages and could really stand to stop, but Kayden Kross (porn star) posted this on her blog the other day. I thought it was a really well-written post and was a good read.

Feel like it's a pretty good read for a feminism thread. Not 100% on point but I enjoyed it. Might be worth a read for those of you who are sick of reading about the intricacies of "yes means no except maybe but really jail".

http://unkrossed.com/old-shit/253-marginalized

It's a porn star's blog so obviously NSFW.

**tyven** · 2014-10-23 14:25

i kind of dig that you read a pornstar's blog

**BerenTebogo** · 2014-10-23 14:37

Originally Posted by tyven

i kind of dig that you read a pornstar's blog

Ex-wife and I met Kayden a number of years ago and she was fantastic to talk to. That's how I got started reading her blog. Her and Sasha Grey have always had some interesting things to say.

Interesting things, interspersed of course, with porn.

**Clash Perez** · 2014-10-23 15:56

Originally Posted by RKenshin

Where are people getting the idea that there wouldn't be obvious and clear resistance if a women actually said no and meant it?

I'm pretty sure that if a woman said no and meant no, but the guy proceeded anyway thinking it was token resistance... the women would eventually and quickly make it pretty fucking clear that this was a "gtfo no." Anger, closing themselves off, trying to leave, stopping all physical touching/kissing, screaming, scratching, clawing, trying to run, crying, etc or whatever. If you still move forward in spite of any of that, guess what - you're more than likely raping someone. Pretty simple?

It's not even that simple. Some women can't bring themselves to fight back or be assertive in the situation. If they don't want sex and have it anyway, it's no less rapey.

Put together someone who feels as if they know all the signs (read: p'much every 18-year-old male ever) and someone who lacks the confidence to be assertive and now there's a problem, despite following the 'advice' in this thread.

**RKenshin** · 2014-10-23 16:29

I said it in my previous post, in the post you quoted (but you left it out?), but again and more clearly - I'm not saying everyone always makes it perfectly clear when they mean no.

I am saying it's ridiculous to think 1) there's no way to ever know with reasonable confidence when no really means no, or 2) that it isn't extremely obvious most of the time, and 3) that there aren't rules you should follow to avoid being in that situation in the first place.

**NynJa** · 2014-10-23 16:54

Its not rape if you convince yourself that she's just playing hard to get, amirite? (not directed at previous post, I just wanted to say that)

**Clash Perez** · 2014-10-23 16:57

Originally Posted by RKenshin

Where are people getting the idea that there wouldn't be obvious and clear resistance if a women actually said no and meant it?

I'm pretty sure that if a woman said no and meant no, but the guy proceeded anyway thinking it was token resistance... the women would eventually and quickly make it pretty fucking clear thkat this was a "gtfo no." Anger, closing themselves off, trying to leave, stopping all physical touching/kissing, screaming, scratching, clawing, trying to run, crying, etc or whatever. If you still move forward in spite of any of that, guess what - you're more than likely raping someone. Pretty simple?

None of the scenarios anyone here or in that article described involved having to overcome signs like that. If you get those signs with someone you don't trust, you're taking a stupidly big risk. And as said before, even if you never reach that level of "no" you're still taking a big risk if you push to that point without 1) having some level of trust established and/or 2) having an adult's level of common sense on reading body language and tone of voice.

It's not like it's typical for a woman to just sit back and let rape happen after a lightly whispered "no" as the only resistance. Pro-tip: This may change if you have a weapon or are being overly aggressive/threatening, which if you are, congrats on being a dumbass and enjoy your rape charges.

I was responding to these lines in particular, but I'll happily address the rest when I'm not struggling with the editor on my phone.

**Koul** · 2014-10-23 18:53

Anita Sarkeesian:

Extreme Christians:

In short, don't have free thought or consider anything they say as false because they are right and you are wrong. Now drink more of your kool-aid

**Correction** · 2014-10-23 19:20

That presentation slide says 'believe' therefore she's just like bible thumpers.

ShitGGSays

**hey** · 2014-10-23 19:42

Originally Posted by NynJa

Except the bros in here are saying "no actually means yes", so they've deluded themselves into thinking its not rape, because they've morally convinced themselves that because she's just saying no, but not fighting, she just meant "I really want it". Which is fucking hypocritical considering these same people were saying "drunk sex is rape, yes even if she tied you down and fucked you all night, you still raped her because she was drunk, because drunk people cant consent".

Drunk people cant conscent, therefor its implied no.
Sober girl saying "no", therefor its implied "yes".

No can mean yes. It doesn't always. No one said it always means yes.

Originally Posted by RKenshin

I said it in my previous post, in the post you quoted (but you left it out?), but again and more clearly - I'm not saying everyone always makes it perfectly clear when they mean no.

I am saying it's ridiculous to think 1) there's no way to ever know with reasonable confidence when no really means no, or 2) that it isn't extremely obvious most of the time, and 3) that there aren't rules you should follow to avoid being in that situation in the first place.

If you aren't absolutely sure (ie you have discussed it beforehand, agreed on a safe word, etc), then you better just assume no means no. If you don't, then don't be surprised when you get arrested the next morning, because wtf did you expect?

It may be difficult to determine if a yes actually means yes, but no pretty much always means no, unless you already agreed it meant yes.

**Clash Perez** · 2014-10-23 19:51

Originally Posted by RKenshin

None of the scenarios anyone here or in that article described involved having to overcome signs like that. If you get those signs with someone you don't trust, you're taking a stupidly big risk. And as said before, even if you never reach that level of "no" you're still taking a big risk if you push to that point without 1) having some level of trust established and/or 2) having an adult's level of common sense on reading body language and tone of voice.

1) Having a level of trust established can be counter-productive for a non-assertive person in a situation like that. If the person has a friendship with someone, the concern for continuing the relationship can be another factor inhibiting a confrontation like you're suggesting would happen. And 2) an adult level of common sense isn't ubiquitous. Expecting hormone-surging teens/20-somethings to make the right call every time isn't reasonable.

Add the two together, and you've got a recipe for non-consensual sex wherein one party may not even have an idea that anything negative has happened. The antidote for which, as far as I can tell, is more open dialog about it rather than continuing the "No Sometimes Means Yes" diatribe when it comes to discussing consent.

tl;dr, Rape Roulette that could be avoided with positive affirmation other than "she totally wanted it, I could tell."

**NynJa** · 2014-10-23 20:43

Originally Posted by Correction

That presentation slide says 'believe' therefore she's just like bible thumpers.

ShitGGSays

Hahahaha

**Ksandra** · 2014-10-23 20:48

As to the rape thing:

No means no. It should always mean no. No matter how hot the girl/guy is. No matter how sober or drunk she/he is. If she/he says no you full stop until she/he tells you otherwise.

Do not get me wrong. I think everyone should stop to the word no. BUT I also think the speaker needs to understand if they say no they also better mean it, and if they say it and the other person stops it is on the speaker to correct the confusion.

A lot of this whole, "well she may mean yes you just gotta read her right." Is complete and utter bullshit imo. If she says no you better fucking believe she means it. And hopefully women will learn to only say it if they mean it, and men will learn to fucking stop whenever it is said (can swap genders based on situation, I do not think only women say no when they mean yes or only men don't stop at no).

edit: to add, I don't think this is just a guy's problem. I completely agree guys shouldn't be playing the "educated guess" game. I think women need to be honest in sexual situations just as much as men need to be.

**RKenshin** · 2014-10-23 21:21

Originally Posted by Clash Perez

1) Having a level of trust established can be counter-productive for a non-assertive person in a situation like that. If the person has a friendship with someone, the concern for continuing the relationship can be another factor inhibiting a confrontation like you're suggesting would happen. And 2) an adult level of common sense isn't ubiquitous. Expecting hormone-surging teens/20-somethings to make the right call every time isn't reasonable.

Add the two together, and you've got a recipe for non-consensual sex wherein one party may not even have an idea that anything negative has happened. The antidote for which, as far as I can tell, is more open dialog about it rather than continuing the "No Sometimes Means Yes" diatribe when it comes to discussing consent.

tl;dr, Rape Roulette that could be avoided with positive affirmation other than "she totally wanted it, I could tell."

I'm not arguing for/against or even really about the matter of consent, I'm arguing against the idea that there aren't (more often than not) obvious ways to tell when you're crossing the line and/or shouldn't be risking it.

I'm not saying that as a form of justification to go for it otherwise, or that it's worth guessing over, or that it's always obvious. I'm saying it's stupid to act like most women are trying to trick you into seriously raping them (and by that, I don't mean in the sexy/"I want it hard" way).

**Thunder** · 2014-10-23 21:33

@Ksandra^

That'll never happen though and I actually don't really want that to happen. I want a certain type of women and I'm a certain type of guy. I need to screen for BS heavily but I'm not going to give the girl a survey to fill out and then evaluate whether or not I should spend time with her. That's weird and they'd probably lie

Instead, I do the same things girls do because they work! Over the years these things just happen naturally without me thinking about them and I'll take a day to respond to a text, push the girl away from a kiss, stop sex from happening, give her shit for no reason, etcetc. And looking back at all those situations it's just an opportunity for the girl to show some personality and respond colorfully to what I'm doing and not be some vapid leave in the wind.

Girls will not abandon this stuff lol, it works too well. I'm not giving it up either. The fastest thing that, I think, can happen is making rape more strictly associated with violence like in RK's examples

**Clash Perez** · 2014-10-23 21:35

I don't think anyone here is arguing that women are attempting to trick men into raping them. I'm certainly not.

From what I can tell, what's being talked about is the validity of "no means maybe" vs. "only yes means yes."

**BerenTebogo** · 2014-10-23 21:41

The only place token resistance comes from is being raised to be embarrassed about your own sexuality. It's not a genetically ingrained ideal, of fucking course it can and should be changed.

Are you fucking kidding me?

**Ksandra** · 2014-10-23 21:48

Originally Posted by SathFenrir

The only place token resistance comes from is being raised to be embarrassed about your own sexuality. It's not a genetically ingrained ideal, of fucking course it can and should be changed.

Are you fucking kidding me?

So much this^

You can't tell me you don't want women to be honest. None of you would have to play the "rape game" if women said what they meant and you listened to them when they say it. Sounds like an ideal situation to me.

**hey** · 2014-10-23 21:56

Originally Posted by Thunder

The fastest thing that, I think, can happen is making rape more strictly associated with violence like in RK's examples

What the fuck is even wrong with you?

**Thunder** · 2014-10-23 22:09

Nobody wants to play the game because that'd be easier...

And ya, it could come from being embarrassed of your own sexuality

But that's not the ONLY reason it exists. If you freak out because the girl didn't respond to your text, or hang your head in shame because she said no to sex, gives you shit, says you're not cool, bad kisser, too tall, too short, dick's too small, not enough money, your smile isn't cute, my last boyfriend was better, blahblahblah then YOU LOSE and the girl moves on to someone more secure, happy, & confident

Same thing on my end, it is WAY MORE efficient of my time to screen for bullshit by playing games. It just happens because that's what I want to do in the moment and looking back it's the fastest way to get scrubs out of my life and keep the good ones close

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