Feminism Thread

[Drex]

so we're really going with the "it's not X-ism, it's statistics" game?

[Salodin]

Whoa whoa whoa, were really talking like we need to bring masculinity and the patriarchy into a subject when we already know that their mental illness and ease of access to guns are the biggest problems? And then we're just gonna turn our heads when the face of feminism tries to go on record saying all this shit is because of the patriarchy in society?

Here's my problem with Anita. Now that she's established that we all live under the thumb of patriarchy, any and all problems are the cause of the men. Any and all.

Granted, we only see men doing these things, and even if testosterone was a factor, it's a factor we can't fucking change. I can't stop being a man, no matter how hard Anita wants me to try. If that predisposes me to violence, my fucking bad; I can't change the science of my sex asshole. What we can change however, is affordable mental healthcare for the people who need it, and doing something about the stigma surrounding mental health. If she wants to be constructive she could comment on that, and not just pointing fingers while offering nothing constructive to the problem. She's acting like a useless piece of trash, which is unfortunate when her voice now carries behind it the power of feminist everywhere.

But god forbid feminist do anything constructive for men, right?

[Teryu]

Or for anyone.

[Clash Perez]

the science of my sex asshole.

You have my attention. Go on.

[Salodin]

Typical man.

[Qalbert]

The way she brought it up is disgustingly lacking in tact, as is any immediate politicizing of a tragedy, and while I support her right to express her opinions/critiques without being harassed and threatened, I certainly don't condone the way she goes about it a lot of the time, especially here.

That said, her point isn't "TESTOSTERONE MADE THEM DO IT". "Toxic masculinity" is not about the "science of your sex" but about the societal and cultural 'norms' that can cause a lot of pressure, especially for someone already suffering from a mental disorder. Notions about what 'manliness' is, and how certain things make you 'less of a man', can absolutely feed into people's issues, and cause all sorts of other problems. I haven't been reading up on this too much, but apparently he had a breakup, and his 'friend' started dating his ex or something? Sexual conquests/'getting the girl' are very frequently seen as a means of victory, as the 'goal' of being a man, I mean just look at any popular movie, the nerd/loser finally hooks up with the girl he loves, the good guy saves the day and gets the girl, so on and so forth. So the possibility that having 'his girl' taken by someone else set him off is, in part, tied to the idea of "toxic masculinity". Hypothetically, as I certainly don't pretend to know the guy's thoughts, this could have caused him to feel emasculated, and to feel humiliated, like he needed to do something, and, unfortunately, another commonly enforced aspect of 'masculinity' is using violence/power to assert one's self (see the comments about "punch the guy in the grocery instead of having a conversation at work"). Did that happen here? I can't really say, I don't know enough about the situation or his motivations, but some of these notions can directly or indirectly cause a lot of issues, especially when compounded by mental illness, and discussing them is not inherently harmful.

I disagree with it being the main cause, and typically trying to point out a singular reason for this kind of a tragedy is an absurd oversimplification, but it can certainly be a contributing factor and worth discussing at a more appropriate time.

[hey]

Whoa whoa whoa, were really talking like we need to bring masculinity and the patriarchy into a subject when we already know that their mental illness and ease of access to guns are the biggest problems?

Do we know that? Because women with the same mental illnesses and the same access to guns don't shoot up schools. It seems like a pretty damn big factor to me.

Granted, we only see men doing these things, and even if testosterone was a factor, it's a factor we can't fucking change. I can't stop being a man, no matter how hard Anita wants me to try. If that predisposes me to violence, my fucking bad; I can't change the science of my sex asshole.

I think it's really silly to think that's the only difference.

[Quicklet]

I'm not sure your argument is a given. As mentioned previously, mental illnesses and other conditions manifest differently based on gender. The rate of autism (relevant for Adam Lanza) is much higher in males than females. Some forms of schizophrenia (of which Jared Loughner was diagnosed) are diagnosed in higher rates and at earlier ages for males than females. Culturally, males may grow up with more handling/access to guns than females -- don't have statistics available on this one but I imagine boys are more likely to be taken hunting / to a gun range with their father.

Of course, it would be nice to have more research available on these types of issues because that's the only way we can come up with a definitive answer about these complex problems, but federal funding for gun research hasn't been allowed for years now.

I just find it irresponsible for someone to jump on a tragedy like this, point to their pet cause as THE defining cause, and act like it's that simple.

[Mazmaz]

Here's my problem with Anita. Now that she's established that we all live under the thumb of patriarchy, any and all problems are the cause of the men. Any and all.

You have no idea what the patriarchy refers to, so stop using it.

But god forbid feminist do anything constructive for men, right?

Feminists: We need to change the toxic societal expectations of behaviour in men, which makes them victims in many different situations.
Salodin: GOD FOBID FEMINISTS DO ANYTHING CONSTRUCTIVE FOR MEN

what the shit man?

[Qalbert]

I just find it irresponsible for someone to jump on a tragedy like this, point to their pet cause as THE defining cause, and act like it's that simple.

absolutely agree on this

[Teryu]

You have no idea what the patriarchy refers to, so stop using it.

lol

[Salodin]

Her point is to blame this boy shooting up his friends on men problems as if millions of other young boys haven't been dumped by a girl who later hooks up with a mutual friend with out killing them. Why don't they go shooting up their schools again?

Entertaining this discussion is disgusting, she has no basis for this statement other then she's a feminist who thinks all problems stem from male authority. Biologically, if being a man is actually a factor in scenarios like this, then guess what? Nothing we can do about it. Socially, if male norms are a factor in why these things happen, then why is she blaming males when she should be helping males get through this thing called puberty and young love with out resorting to testosterone fueled violence. What about encouraging young men to talk about their feelings, to tell people how they feel, to seek help when they need it most at once of their most emotionally fragile times of their life. Again, God forbid feminist help men.

Good luck young men. Good fucking luck.

[hey]

Socially, if male norms are a factor in why these things happen, then why is she blaming males when she should be helping males get through this thing called puberty and young love with out resorting to testosterone fueled violence. What about encouraging young men to talk about their feelings, to tell people how they feel, to seek help when they need it most at once of their most emotionally fragile times of their life. Again, God forbid feminist help men.

That's exactly what she wants...?

[Salodin]

Maz, I don't know where to start with you. Maybe I'll respond, maybe I won't. Still frustrated people are defending this feminist troll right now...

[Qalbert]

The whole point of calling it out isn't to stop at "HEY MEN HAVE A PROBLEM" or to blame/hate on men, it's to raise awareness of the problem and start moving towards a solution. (although much like her videos about games she tends to be a lot more of the former than the latter, which is why I don't really care for them, awareness only goes so far)
Another factor that goes against this is that the 'norm' is that men don't discuss or acknowledge their feelings, and this leads to a lot of people either dismissing the issue as absurd, or feeling attacked and lashing out, whether verbally, violently, or through anonymous hate speech on the internet. I mean no offense here, but look at how visceral your reaction is to what people have been trying to say. You get all upset and make it all about one person, letting your dislike (however justified it may be) for her distract attention away from even entertaining the notion that there's something wrong.

[Salodin]

That's exactly what she wants...?

No, you don't get to say "manhood should be the central discussion, not mental illness or guns" as feminist numero uno and then get the benefit of the doubt that you actually mean "they should be encouraged to seek emotional help from friends and professionals". You guys are drinking too much koolaid if you think she means anything other then "patriarchy killing mah gurllllsss".

She's entitled to her own opinions sure, but fuck her if she thinks she can take one step forward and two steps back on an issue that has actual EVIDENCE that mental illness is a gundam fucking sized factor in these tragedies. A factor that when sprinkled with some good ole amendment 2 causes tragedies like this.

[Gokku]

The whole point of calling it out isn't to stop at "HEY MEN HAVE A PROBLEM" or to blame/hate on men, it's to raise awareness of the problem and start moving towards a solution. (although much like her videos about games she tends to be a lot more of the former than the latter, which is why I don't really care for them, awareness only goes so far)
Another factor that goes against this is that the 'norm' is that men don't discuss or acknowledge their feelings, and this leads to a lot of people either dismissing the issue as absurd, or feeling attacked and lashing out, whether verbally, violently, or through anonymous hate speech on the internet. I mean no offense here, but look at how visceral your reaction is to what people have been trying to say. You get all upset and make it all about one person, letting your dislike (however justified it may be) for her distract attention away from even entertaining the notion that there's something wrong.

im expressing my feelings, about her. i think shes a con artist at worst and a money hungry bandwagon fake feminist at best. who's blatant HYPE TRAIN INVINCIBLE VAG glory quest is an insult to men and women alike and being "male" does not absolve her or her followers from valid criticisms, if she wants "equality" she should start with being judged as an equal. She knows she can spew what ever filth she wants and anyone who doesn't want to be crucified as a misogynist pig either shut up or side with her.

If she were a positive voice or unbiased reason id stand for her but shes not she has an agenda and its making her alot of money and every death threat is just more $$$'s in her pocket, Gamergate etc is a cash cow for her.

[Qalbert]

A large, or at least loud, segment of people who disagree/dislike her, justified though it may be, resort to saying shit like that, which just keeps the cycle going. Yelling hateful nasty shit, especially relating to gender, isn't going to make you look like 'the good guy'. As long as there are people out there who will call her a cunt or a stupid bitch anytime she says something then she'll keep getting attention, and keep saying the opposition is hateful misogynistic pigs because they keep spouting hateful misogynistic bullshit. If you want her to go away you have to take the high road here, and there are an awful lot of people who aren't willing to do that.
Obviously ideally both sides would calm the fuck down and actually promote a discussion about these issues and what can be done to improve them, but realistically I don't think there's a chance of that happening in the foreseeable future.

[Andalusian girls]

But god forbid feminist do anything constructive for men, right?

feminist organizations were the primary advocates for changing the federal definition of rape to include men (away from the ridiculous 'carnal knowledge of a female, forcibly and against her will'), when Congress was formulating the seminal Violence Against Women Act NOW (National Organization for Woman) made clear one of their non-negotiable positions was that men receive every protection against domestic violence that would be included for women (the monogender name was the result of politicians), they've demanded additional legislation to deal with sexual violence in prisons (after being the major lobbying force behind the Prison Rape Elimination Act, which was the first bill to ever address sexual violence in prisons, and given prison demographics helps far more men than women), if you care about the gays feminist organizations have been staunch advocates for marriage equality + and were fierce opponents of Don't Ask Don't Tell and DOMA, if you're pro-choice feminists were again at the forefront of the struggle to legalize both abortion and widespread access to birth control (thereby doing more than anyone ever has to get straight males laid), feminists were the ones who fought to change a law which prohibited single men from requesting tax deductions for legal dependents, while ending workplace discrimination largely benefited females it also enabled men to enter vocations such as nursing and primary education teaching which had long been off limits to any swinging dick, NOW has repeatedly and publicly supported the effort to include women in Selective Service registration (and has since 1980), etc etc etc

not to mention less measurable benefits such as everyone from The World Bank to Bill Gates noting feminists engendering female enlistment in the workforce has been a major trigger for dramatic economic expansion benefiting the members of that given economy, or the basic deconstruction of traditional gender roles suggesting boys shouldn't be called faggots for crying

but it's probably easier to embrace victimhood and tremble before the all-powerful Sarkeesian in the sky

[Blubbartron]

A word on its own is not hateful and misogynistic. The context and reasons behind the use of words determines if they're hateful and misogynistic. I'll happily be called a misogynist if it means being on the side of reason - the side capable of distinguishing these things.

Anita is a stupid bitch because she holds stupid beliefs, and says stupid things, all while maintaining a bitchy holier-than-thou attitude. She's not a stupid bitch merely because she happens to be female (except for actual misogynists).