Feminism Thread

[Charismatic]

And by shitty people you mean largely men. Because America is a country where men hold the majority of power and power is all that matters. It's why we get all giddy when some female gets elected to power or leads a private company because it bucks the overwhelming trend towards men. And that by nature is what a patriarchy is. 50 years ago, the idea of a woman running this country would have been as amusing as a black guy running it.

The attitudes women hold towards themselves and other women is largely the construct of men. Be that the religion people follow, the fashion trends that people use to attract mates or the games we play to pass our time. Who created all this stuff? Men. The idea of women having a say, a meaningful say, is a recent invention. This isn't to say powerful women haven't been a thing throughout history but those are roadbumps in a sea of dudes.

lol

[ronin sparthos]

lol

I'll take the bait.

Look at all the fashion outlets, the media pitches towards women, religion and other sources of deriving oneself and these pillars of power have often been occupied by dudes. You'd think the fashion industry with its major influence on how women behave would you know... have women in it ... only to be surprised it's overrun with old balding dudes and gay dudes. The clergy? Dudes. The advertising execs pitching what to feed your kids, what to clean with, what to wipe your ass with? Dudes. Dudes. Dudes. Women are a recent inroad in these fields.

You think these things don't affect women and how they see themselves? You'd be wrong. It's mainly why people have chosen to attack these structures because of their influence on how women view themselves. Be that shopping yourself to extremes, promoting extreme measures to lose weight, pretending minorities don't exist or relegating fat chicks to the plus sized circus.

This isn't women perpetuating their idea of what women should do. It's traditionally been men with the power using it to their own ends.

[Charismatic]

Would you expect a deep and insightful response if you said the sky is green?

[tyven]

Can some one explain to me why people "know" patriarchy is a thing, and not just shitty people doing shitty sexist things.

Also, why is it called patriarchy, since that word actually has meaning outside feminist talk.

this is something jaden smith would tweet. and for that, i award you a few lelz

[Charismatic]

I'll take the bait.

Look at all the fashion outlets, the media pitches towards women, religion and other sources of deriving oneself and these pillars of power have often been occupied by dudes. You'd think the fashion industry with its major influence on how women behave would you know... have women in it ... only to be surprised it's overrun with old balding dudes and gay dudes. The clergy? Dudes. The advertising execs pitching what to feed your kids, what to clean with, what to wipe your ass with? Dudes. Dudes. Dudes. Women are a recent inroad in these fields.

You think these things don't affect women and how they see themselves? You'd be wrong. It's mainly why people have chosen to attack these structures because of their influence on how women view themselves. Be that shopping yourself to extremes, promoting extreme measures to lose weight, pretending minorities don't exist or relegating fat chicks to the plus sized circus.

This isn't women perpetuating their idea of what women should look like and do it's traditionally been men with the power using it to their own ends.

Hey, if you want to believe that these women can't think for themselves, that's on you.
I don't really agree. :)

[Salodin]

Not saying I agree with you ronin, and I'd elaborate if I wasnt at work and on a phone, but what is a solution? As general as it could be, since obviously there is no magic fix all solution to your "problem".

[Mazmaz]

I'll take the bait.

Look at all the fashion outlets, the media pitches towards women, religion and other sources of deriving oneself and these pillars of power have often been occupied by dudes. You'd think the fashion industry with its major influence on how women behave would you know... have women in it ... only to be surprised it's overrun with old balding dudes and gay dudes. The clergy? Dudes. The advertising execs pitching what to feed your kids, what to clean with, what to wipe your ass with? Dudes. Dudes. Dudes. Women are a recent inroad in these fields.

You think these things don't affect women and how they see themselves? You'd be wrong. It's mainly why people have chosen to attack these structures because of their influence on how women view themselves. Be that shopping yourself to extremes, promoting extreme measures to lose weight, pretending minorities don't exist or relegating fat chicks to the plus sized circus.

This isn't women perpetuating their idea of what women should do. It's traditionally been men with the power using it to their own ends.

Don't forget these structures also affect how men see themselves. They victimize all genders. Albeit some more than others.

[ronin sparthos]

Hey, if you want to believe that these women can't think for themselves, that's on you.
I don't really agree.

I didn't say women can't think for themselves or we wouldn't have women who've tread from the path laid out for them to get shit done at great hardship. Keyword: Hardship. Anomalies.

What I did say is that society as you know it is a construct set up by men for the service of men and within that structure women have held little power. Most people either live blissfully unaware of it or realize it but simply accept it to avoid upsetting the status quo.

Every major source of power in this country has traditionally been dominated by men. Be that how you view your place in the universe (religion), how you view yourself (fashion/trends/hobbies), how you obtain knowledge (education), how shit gets run (politics) and even how you rear offspring through merchandising.

[Charismatic]

I didn't say women can't think for themselves or we wouldn't have women who've tread from the path laid out for them to get shit done at great hardship. Keyword: Hardship. Anomalies.

What I did say is that society as you know it is a construct set up by men for the service of men and within that structure women have held little power. Most people either live blissfully unaware of it or realize it but simply accept it.

Every major source of power in this country has traditionally been dominated by men. Be that how you view your place in the universe (religion), how you view yourself (fashion/trends), how you obtain knowledge (education), how shit gets run (politics) and even how you rear offspring.

The bolded parts are at odds with each other.

[Mazmaz]

Not saying I agree with you ronin, and I'd elaborate if I wasnt at work and on a phone, but what is a solution? As general as it could be, since obviously there is no magic fix all solution to your "problem".

Off the top of my head? Critical analysis of these structures of power. Something that you and others in the thread actively speak against.

[quannum]

i don't wanna grow up, i'm a toys 'r' us kid
there's a million self-victimization toys at toys r us that i can play with

[ronin sparthos]

Not saying I agree with you ronin, and I'd elaborate if I wasnt at work and on a phone, but what is a solution? As general as it could be, since obviously there is no magic fix all solution to your "problem".

There is no panacea to it but diversity (gender, racial) within the fields of power offers the chance for a reevaluation of many of the most deeply held beliefs rooted into our culture. As women gain power so do we gain new perspectives on the everyday doldrums of human existence. A less rigid system makes room for different types of people rather our current system which dictates a very narrow set of winners.

Oh and I'm under no illusions that sexualization will vanish or that women won't abuse power once it fully corrupts them. It's an inevitability. What I do hope comes from all this is a greater sense of awareness amongst normalfolk that harassment isn't ok, that men can raise children just as well as women and that biological urges is no reason to infringe on someones personal space.

Technology only exacerbates the push.

[ronin sparthos]

The bolded parts are at odds with each other.

Except they aren't.

The lens one most see their existence through in American culture is predominantly a patriarchal one. When your God is a sky dude that straight up dictates women inferior and your fashions and trends dominated by male ideas, guess what you're going to internalize? You ain't no island to yourself.

I think I already mentioned that through critical thinking, parenting or circumstance one can buck the trend but often at peril. Just ask Malala for a real world example.

[Charismatic]

When your God is a sky dude that straight up dictates women inferior and your fashions and trends dominated by male ideas, guess what you're going to internalize?

Nothing in particular if you think for yourself. You may agree, you may disagree.
That's why there are men and women alike who agree and disagree with all sorts of things. Someone telling you something is so does not make you internalize it or believe it unless you are naught but sheeple.

And 'often at peril' is hardly worth noting in the first world. If you want to talk about the third world, don't talk to me; that's a whole other discussion.

[Salodin]

Seems like a lot of conjecture to me.

Can't you blame most of this on division of labor, something that's been around since our ancestors became different enough to be considered homosapiens? It's also something that was pretty much needed until (relatively) recently when industrialization made the differences between sexes irrelevant in most work.

[Marootsoobutsu]

Do you believe that women, by their nature, are less inclined to ask a man out and be the initiator in a potential relationship?

Or

Do you believe that there are behaviors that are encouraged by pop culture/upbringing that can influence this?

Not asking me, but my opinion on this: Both.

I think that the natural inclination for women is more passive in regards to pursuing a guy, and that guys are more aggressive/initiatory. However, I also think that society has developed in such a way that these typical traits have become the *expected* traits.

So, while I think most women (not all) are by nature less inclined to initiate the courtship, I think that those who are in the middle (some number, who knows how big), feel pressured to either wait and be passive or go out and be aggressive-- most probably toward the former, but some, if more strongly influenced by aggressive forms of feminism, toward the later. I have zero evidence backing this up, but I tend to think that's a general explanation for many of the social roles/norms that we have as a society... that most people, however far back, were more like X or Y, and so society evolved most smoothly when those natural strengths/traits were catered to. I think it's very much had the effect of exaggerating nature, but I also think that, given equal head, things would be closer to what they are today than equal ratios across the board.

[Drex]

Off the top of my head? Critical analysis of these structures of power. Something that you and others in the thread actively speak against.

the irony being that these allegedly critical analyses of the power structures help reinforce them. it's hopefully clear from even a casual glance at history that power transcends gender and race, so why are rubes writing red herring articles that encourage other rubes to bicker over penises and vaginas? do you genuinely believe the power structures can change when even the people without power defend them this way?

[hey]

Someone telling you something is so does not make you internalize it or believe it unless you are naught but sheeple.

If everyone constantly tells you something, for your entire life, it's almost inevitable.

Everything that ever happens to a person will influence them in some way. Some events may influence more, and some people may be easier to influence than others, but there is always some kind of influence. Enough of it can easily change a person quite a bit. That doesn't make them sheeple. That's just how life works. It's rare to be able to point to one specific event and say "that's why i believe x". It's almost always a lot of little things over the course of a lifetime. Everything that happens affects us in ways we will never even realize.

[NynJa]

No, he's right, sheeple.

anecdotal evidence: I went to a mostly jewish school, majority of my friends are jewish, my entire family is jewish, I was fucking circumcised for religious reasons, jewish 'law' states that if the mother is jewish then the child is jewish as well (which my friends have repeated to me over and over and over)...yet I dont believe in the existence of any god.

[Clash Perez]

I don't think anyone is arguing that there are no outliers, but rather that the majority of people tend to follow their upbringings. Enough so that cultures and power structures remain largely the same despite the outliers.