Feminism Thread

[Priran]

Millennials should work on interpersonal skills lol... as if catcalls are a recent invention.

Bitching about it is, is my point. A lot of feminism and social justice at large is focused on "microaggression", lit. nitpicking and shaming unpleasant personal interaction.

[tyven]

If saying hello is catcalling then I wouldn't exactly call it a slippery slope

WELL WHAT ELSE DO YOU CALL A BUNCH OF CATS MEOWING AT EACHOTHER

[Correction]

Sorry, your removal of context and dispensing of thought-terminating cliché doesn't change the reality that trying to change the world to accommodate the sheltered and naïve is breeding a generation of pigeons.

If I put the context back in you're saying that instead of trying to fix (or even address!) the environment that generates the unpleasant behavior, you'd have the targets of said behavior change what they do so that they don't become victims.

That is literally victim blaming.

[Salodin]

You can and should both teach people interpersonal kills to handle harassment AND shame and ostracize people who harass other human beings. What we shouldn't do is focus our energies on the people on the receiving end of the harassment as if they were largely responsible for the harassment they suffered. Doing that gives harassers the impression they can get away with that kind behavior.

I do wish you had genuinely presented your point of view (like you did just now) rather than flippantly and callously dismiss someone's experience of harassment for two posts in a row, like you did earlier. I think this goes to show that the real chasm within people in this thread who defend feminism and those who oppose is ultimately about empathy. You think people who suffer harassment should "man up" about it, and when they disagree with you, you decide to beat them over the head about it. As if the harassment they suffered initially weren't enough.

It's a shame because I really do think some of you guys have fairly good points, but I think it's your lack of empathy that really undercuts your positions and is ultimately the reason why you loose these arguments.

You assume we don't shame people who do this. In fact, the only ones I've noticed who continuously do this throughout life with little to no regard for the people they do it to are the poor minorities who just don't have the cultural expectations or education to know better. Not to mention a lot of young men stop doing this once they realize they'll never find a mate worth a damn by approaching women like this.

This isn't a problem with empathy, at least not for me, since I know its emotionally stressful for women to go through this, but you can't look at the lowest common denominator for men and use that as a basis to judge all problems from. Women also need to build coping mechanisms instead of expecting society to treat you like a fragile egg. The ones most of us have a problem in this thread with are the people saying this is entirely a man's problem to deal with and fix, because it's not. No amount of discussion will fix shitty men acting like shitty pigs.

I'm glad you admit that we need to work from both sides though; the men doing this and the women who need to develop the skills to deal with this.

[Priran]

If I put the context back in you're saying that instead of trying to fix (or even address!) the environment that generates the unpleasant behavior, you'd have the targets of said behavior change what they do so that they don't become victims.

That is literally victim blaming.

You can't make everything illegal. People can be shitty without being criminals and it is absolutely your job to avoid becoming a victim in those cases.

[Salodin]

You can't make everything illegal. People can be shitty without being criminals and it is absolutely your job to avoid becoming a victim in those cases.

What is it about this that people don't get?

[Meresgi]

What is it about this that people don't get?

People want to be coddled and make all the bad mens go away ;_;

[Thunder]

Who wouldn't want that? Ideally no more common than they are for straight white cis able-bodied middle class men now.

What do you think about people having to go through different adversities is why we have such a range of artistic expression, business ventures, progressions in science/literature, etcetc?

Here's an except from one of my favorite books of all time. What do you think of the message? Forgive the ubiquitous man/men/he, this was written in 1965. I think it has a decent enough point about how nature/society needs inequality in order to thrive
The Lessons of History by Will Durant

Spoiler: show

Since Nature (here meaning total reality and its processes) has not read very carefully the American Declaration of Independence or the the French Revolutionary Declaration of the Rights of Man, we are all born unfree and unequal.
...
Inequality is not only natural and inborn, it grows with the complexity of civilization.
...
Nature smiles at the union of freedom and equality in our utopias. For freedom and equality are sworn and everlasting enemies, and when one prevails the other dies. Leave men free, and their natural inequalities will multiply almost geometrically, as in England and America in the nineteenth century under laissez-faire. To check the growth of inequality, liberty must be sacrificed, as in Russia after 1917. Even when repressed, inequality grows; only the man who is below the average in economic ability desires equality; those who are conscious of superior ability desire freedom; and in the end superior ability has its way. Utopias of equality are biologically doomed, and the best that the amiable philosopher can hope for is an approximate equality of legal justice and educational opportunity. A society in which all potential abilities are allowed to develop and function will have a survival advantage in the competition of groups. This competition becomes more severe as the destruction of distance intensifies the confrontation of states.

Here's a cheezy/cliche and short example of someone who achieved greatness and went through adversity (black in harlem in the 60's/70's)

Spoiler: show

That video of him there is so inspiring, I love that message. People treating him differently and assuming he'll fail FUELS him to achieve. He's going about black inequality with positivity, basically. I think that's literally magical in terms for spreading awareness&change when you put it next to the shame/negativity/guilt/rageb8 stuff that's all over this thread

[archibaldcrane]

Do you want everyone to be treated equally and have the same opportunities in life?

Who wouldn't want that?

Cmon now, "opportunities" are a limited resource. I recognize my privilege rules, why would I want to have less of it?

[archibaldcrane]

You can't make everything illegal. People can be shitty without being criminals and it is absolutely your job to avoid becoming a victim in those cases.

What is it about this that people don't get?

I thought we already cleared up that absolutely nobody in this thread is advocating to make catcalling like you see in that video illegal.

[Ksandra]

there is nothing wrong with trying to make shitty people less shitty.

hell, getting this through to some guys may help improve their game so they can actually get a girl.

[Charismatic]

there is nothing wrong with trying to make shitty people less shitty.

hell, getting this through to some guys may help improve their game so they can actually get a girl.

I agree with this.
Where the disconnect for me (with what some of the posters like ronin, correction, mazmaz, hey and the like are saying) is at the point where it becomes a bad thing to say anything at all to a stranger unless they are in a specific place like a bar or something.

I don't believe that talking to someone on the streets makes you a shitty person.

[archibaldcrane]

It's not a bad thing to say anything to a stranger - that is, unless you have no reason to believe that person is interested in conversing with you - in which case, you're trying to talk to them while thinking they don't want to talk to you, aka being annoying.

[Charismatic]

It's not a bad thing to say anything to a stranger - that is, unless you have no reason to believe that person is interested in conversing with you - in which case, you're trying to talk to them while thinking they don't want to talk to you, aka being annoying.

Someone has to show interest first; if everyone had this attitude, conversations would never take place.
I am so very glad that most people in the world don't agree with this else the human race would be doomed.

[Ksandra]

I agree with this.
Where the disconnect for me (with what some of the posters like ronin, correction, mazmaz, hey and the like are saying) is at the point where it becomes a bad thing to say anything at all to a stranger unless they are in a specific place like a bar or something.

I don't believe that talking to someone on the streets makes you a shitty person.

don't get me wrong, I don't think saying hi or god bless is going to necessarily be a bad thing. I am not on board with the don't talk to anyone on the streets ever.

Funny enough, last night I was with a group of people. We went to eat after a Halloween event. We ate outside and it was dark. At one point, a gentlemen kinda walked through our area (we were taking up two tables because the kids were running around). He said hi to me as he passed by. I definitely think it was because he felt awkward having to cut through us. I highly doubt it was to catcall me when we had kids everywhere and husbands et. al.

I said hi very cheerfully back and that was the end of that.

[archibaldcrane]

Someone has to show interest first; if everyone had this attitude, conversations would never take place.
I am so very glad that most people in the world don't agree with this else the human race would be doomed.

Unless you are autistic, you know there are ways to demonstrate openness to conversation other than simply starting to talk.

While I've got you here though - do black dudes pursue/holler at white girls with big asses more frequently because that's what they're attracted to, or is it because they realize that fat assed white girls probably don't get as much attention from white dudes and they think that makes them more receptive to black men?

Maybe both?

[Charismatic]

This whole thing reminds me of when I used to ride the bus to and from work and would play my PSP on the ride.
There's countless numbers of people who would try to strike up conversations with me. "Yo, what game are you playin' dude?" "How much did that cost?" etc etc
Not many of these conversations went anywhere but a few did and I'm still associated with some of the people I talked to 'cause we hit it off. I wasn't looking to talk to anyone but the people were interested in talking to me.

If I didn't particularly feel like talking at any given moment I would say so, I got a pretty hostile reaction from a dude once due to it but that wouldn't stop me from doing it again because I realize that's not most people and I'm not about to start treating every person like they are fucking insane because a handful of people are insane.

Clearly this isn't the same thing but there are parallels and the 'logic' is about the same. If this began to bother me enough, yeah, I might have taken a different route or something but I would never ask that people stop talking to folks on the bus about things simply because I was personally annoyed (though I wasn't, unless I was really really into a game when someone would tap me on the shoulder or what have you).

[Lyall]

Please educate yourself on the concept of intersectionality. Here's a very easy-to-read article on the subject. Let me know what you think:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gina-c...b_5269255.html

It's an interesting take on the topic, and while I think I understand the message they were trying to get across, I run into a full stop when they talk about feeling safe and secure around people of my own race and gender.

I'm a fat white dude who grew up in shitty (read: black) parts of Philadelphia. I didn't have to worry about getting raped waiting for public transportation at night but I sure as fuck worried about my safety. Every other white guy I knew ended up getting jumped/robbed/mugged. A friend of mine got attacked on his DOORSTEP as he was leaving for work one day and ended up with a wired jaw for a couple of weeks.

This returns me to my point I originally made regarding this bit of the conversation: The ones who want out will get out. I fought my way out of that shit hole and found my way to a stable job in a better area of the country. I could have just as easily turned into an angry racist who resented his surroundings but I chose to leave. I chose to rise above that line that a lot of people I know fell under. My point was that the free thinkers who hate how the fashion industry is run and hate how gender lines are drawn and hate how they were expected to behave will respond to that, and that is their choice, whether or not they think they can make it.

Of course, it's just as simple to slap all of that away and say "Well, you just moved to an area with more white people, black/chinese/gay/genderqueer/dragonkin/whathaveyou can't do that." I don't have an answer to that, but I (naturally, I suppose) don't think the answer is forcing a way of viewing on everyone. When everyone's Hulk Buster Ironman, no one is.

[archibaldcrane]

@chari I think you've nailed it - "hey i see you playing a game i like games maybe you'd enjoy talking to me" is perfectly reasonable logic to open a convo with. It's sometimes going to result in a "guess not" but at least there's some logic to it.

On the other hand, "hey it appears that the ass is fat so you should want to talk to me" doesn't make any sense.

[Eurell]

On the other hand, "hey it appears that the ass is fat so you should want to talk to me" doesn't make any sense.

I don't think anyone is defending those lines. People are just saying that saying "Hello" or "God bless" is fine, where as Hey (i think it was Hey anyway) and the creator of that video consider it harassment.