Feminism Thread

[kuronosan]

What's the issue with identifying as humanist?

[Salodin]

Maz is correct. There is no context.

So you believe it isn't possible to support feminism without identifying as feminist, or you believe the two are mutually exclusive?

I'm trying to understand this, so you can fuck off with that noise Sal.

What noise? Your lack of comprehension? Just cause I advocate for equality doesn't mean I want to be labeled the same as Anita for instance.

Maybe if there was a consensus on what feminism was, I wouldn't be against being labeled as one. Don't get your panties in a twist, if I agree with republicans on one issue does that make me republican? it's the same thing with the question you asked.

[Teryu]

What's the issue with identifying as humanist?

I think humanist is the label used by some insane cult.

[Mazmaz]

What's the issue with identifying as humanist?

Other than the fact that it's a made-up label

if you believe in the same messages and ideas of feminism but are vehemently opposed to identifying as one, you're implying that feminism is about something else and has bad aspects to it, which helps to fuel the misconception that it is toxic, which helps to defeat the ultimate goals of equality.

Did you want me to expand on that?

[quannum]

Other than the fact that it's a made-up label

fillion.gif

[Ksandra]

Other than the fact that it's a made-up label

wut? It is no more made up than any other label. It's actually older than the label feminism lol

[kuronosan]

Other than the fact that it's a made-up label



Did you want me to expand on that?

Yes.

omg Anita lokeesia omg

Sal I seriously think you are not on the same page or planet here. I'm not in favor of Anita or her ideas but I am asking questions to figure out where it is I do stand.

To do that, I need to know.

[Salodin]

Maybe I misunderstood you. If I did, appologies.

To be clear, I'm all for equality, but don't call me a feminist. I don't have a problem with the word, I just don't want to be labeled as such and then people assume I hold the same views as some one as Anita; that is, I agree with her on some issues (probably), but not everything.

[hey]

I'm having a tough time even researching quickly anything about gay black trans women, let alone having known anything about them that would be valuable to the thread before, so forgive me for completely ignoring that point in the rest of this post. That probably says a lot about the issue, too

Yeah, because no one cares about them, and they don't often have much of a voice of their own, because things we all take for granted, like internet access, or even electricity tend to be hard for them because:
1) Their families hate them, and throw them out on the street as kids.
2) society hates them, and won't give them jobs. When they can get some money, they often aren't able to get housing anyway because of discrimination from landlords.
3) charities hate them, and won't help them.
4) Constant abuse, and harassment (not just people saying hi either) often leaves them too mentally exhausted to really accomplish anything.

I think a lot of people just have absolutely no idea how bad it is for some people. I mean sure, okay, maybe straight white middle class women have it reasonably good, and complain excessively, i can kind of see that. But if you look further you will find there are lots of people for whom it really, really is horrible to live in our society, and thinking they're lazy because they can't do anything about it is a goddamn joke. For the amount of effort it would take some people to get a house in the suburbs, with a steady job at just over minimum wage, a straight white man could easily be a millionaire.

Anyway, do you think it's possible any under privileged groups of people get into worse positions because of "awareness raising" like this thread? It's all so negative, how does talk like this not just oppress a group of people further? Convince a group of people that they have it impossibly hard and I would not be surprised if they do actually have it impossibly hard because of their own mental prisons.

No, absolutely not.

& is a view like this wrong?: Just telling people of privilege that they've got it easier and others have it way harder is literally undermining the problems they deal with and I can't imagine any other response (on average) besides being pissed off @ the people pointing out how much better the privileged have it

Yes, it's definitely wrong. By not recognizing the problem, they are creating more. The lack of awareness is exactly what leads to people thinking that someone who can't pull themselves up by their bootstraps and get out of a bad situation is just lazy, or not trying hard enough (ie stupid bullshit like "The ones who want out will get out", thanks lyall for the quote). This makes about as much sense as holding high school students to standards set by olympic athletes, and not letting them graduate if they can't make it. Oh and they also have to carry 100 lb of weights while doing it. The expectations given the situation are almost impossibly high, so it's no surprise they can't handle it. But they aren't lazy, and they are trying to do better. They just can't, because no one ever gives them a chance. And the perception of them is part of it. No one wants to hire a person they think is lazy and won't do the job right, and no one wants to rent a house to someone they don't think will be able to pay the rent, or take care of the house, and this creates a feedback loop, where they aren't successful, so no one wants to give them a chance, so they can't be successful...

It is important to recognize how hard some people have it because it allows you to better recognize the difference between someone who doesn't care to succeed, and someone who has been prevented at every step from succeeding, and maybe think twice before turning them away when they need help, or not stepping in and helping if you see them being hurt.

[NynJa]

Cat-calling and bludgeoning a female with weak ass "game" can all die in a fire. Period. Rich, poor, white, black, latino, it's all chauvinistic bullshit. Superficial females might be receptive to that noise, but I bet a lot of dudes trying to defend these outdated pick-up angles are some of the same anti-social fuckboys who subscribe to those PUA books on how to manipulate people to get what they want. You can spot one of these try-hards (not the frat boys who work in teams) at nearly every small venue or event, usually sparking up "debates" or making a scene to draw attention. Don't be that guy.

Hey pumpum
No ones defending "DAAAMN I JUST SAW A THOUSAND DOLLARS", or the two people following her, or the guy who eyefucked her for 5 seconds and blew a load doing so.

Were defending the notion that "hi" is harassment.

[hey]

Maybe I misunderstood you. If I did, appologies.

To be clear, I'm all for equality, but don't call me a feminist. I don't have a problem with the word, I just don't want to be labeled as such and then people assume I hold the same views as some one as Anita; that is, I agree with her on some issues (probably), but not everything.

That's the thing about feminism. There are so many different, and opposing views, because it is such a broad label, that it can sometimes alienate people. There are plenty of feminists whose views i would strongly disagree with. To me, i don't think it's a problem, because i know that feminism has so much variety, and it doesn't imply i agree with everything every feminist says. But i can understand you not wanting to use the label, to avoid that association with people who don't realize this. There's nothing wrong with that, i think. I still think it's great if you still care about the issues, and work towards equality, even if you don't label yourself a feminist. Although if you argue that you're not a feminist if someone calls you one, or think there's something wrong with being a feminist, then i think you're either a terrible person, or have totally misunderstood it. Just not using the label though is totally fine.

[Salodin]

If you explained your position on feminism, called yourself a feminist, and then I agreed with just the majority of what you said, then yes I'm a feminist lol.

[Mazmaz]

wut? It is no more made up than any other label. It's actually older than the label feminism lol

It's made up in the context of referring to equal rights and gender politics. Of course it has a completely separate, unrelated meaning.

[Thunder]

I mean sure, okay, maybe straight white middle class women have it reasonably good, and complain excessively, i can kind of see that.

Oh my god thank you so much, I've been wanting this from someone like you so badly


Kidding aside, I do appreciate your post and have more empathy than I did before for people who genuinely have a shit draw in life in the US/affluent areas of Europe where just about everyone else has mountains of opportunity if they'd just go looking

& is a view like this wrong?: Just telling people of privilege that they've got it easier and others have it way harder is literally undermining the problems they deal with and I can't imagine any other response (on average) besides being pissed off @ the people pointing out how much better the privileged have it

Yes, it's definitely wrong. By not recognizing the problem, they are creating more.

Can't you have the privileged recognize an issue by tactfully articulating it so that it can't be misrepresented to the masses as an affront to their realities? Privilege talk stirs up SO much hate and animosity even though it makes sense, don't you think?

Do you think it's possible any under privileged groups of people get into worse positions because of "awareness raising" like this thread? It's all so negative, how does talk like this not just oppress a group of people further? Convince a group of people that they have it impossibly hard and I would not be surprised if they do actually have it impossibly hard because of their own mental prisons.

No, absolutely not.

if the world went and said everyone with brown eyes is under privileged you don't think it would create at least a smidgen of self-fulling prophecy within brown eyed people?

[thetruepandagod]

It's made up in the context of referring to equal rights and gender politics. Of course it has a completely separate, unrelated meaning.

You sound like someone arguing that gay can't mean homosexual because it meant happy first.

[notorious bum]

Hey pumpum
No ones defending "DAAAMN I JUST SAW A THOUSAND DOLLARS", or the two people following her, or the guy who eyefucked her for 5 seconds and blew a load doing so.

Were defending the notion that "hi" is harassment.

I too sometimes dabble in Larry David-tier "constructive" debates. Thanks for taking the time to flirt with my post, though.

[NynJa]

Thats harassing

[hey]

Oh my god thank you so much, I've been wanting this from someone like you so badly

I think you will find a lot of people like me saying the same thing. The people with the loudest voices talking about privilege tend to actually be fairly privileged. Not nearly as much as some, but much much much more than others. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and they have a right to demand equality as much as anyone else, but i get why it can be annoying, and seen as extreme. Spending as much time as white women do talking about a wage gap that is so small that no one can even be 100% sure is real, for example, seems a bit silly to me, because there's probably more important issues to worry about.

To give perspective on where i am coming from, i am white, mtf trans, disabled, bisexual, with middle class parents who don't hate me simply for existing.

Can't you have the privileged recognize an issue by tactfully articulating it so that it can't be misrepresented to the masses as an affront to their realities? Privilege talk stirs up SO much hate and animosity even though it makes sense, don't you think?

Yes, it could probably be done much better. I do think overall it does a lot of good, but certainly methods could always be improved.

if the world went and said everyone with brown eyes is under privileged you don't think it would create at least a smidgen of self-fulling prophecy within brown eyed people?

Perhaps, but i don't think it is significant.

[Jefe]

Mtf bisexual, eh? Well, at least you aren't mtf lesbian.

[quannum]

Perhaps, but i don't think it is significant.

Women aren't good at math, when you tell women that women aren't good at math.
There's research on that and on inserting brown-eyed vs blue-eyed discrimination into 3rd graders.