Feminism Thread

[archibaldcrane]

I remember my 3 year old sister and myself at 5 taking baths together and "exploring" each other's genitals with our feet.

What I learned is don't let kids bathe together when they're old enough to form permanent memories, cause noone wants to remember that shit.

[Correction]

"lena dunham was only 7 at the time of this one particular story, and in our expert opinion it is normal for 7 year olds to play with their toddler sibling's genitals"

"people are only pointing out that lena dunham sexually abused her sister into her teens because they're afraid of successful women"

"you're not allowed to be upset with lena dunham for abusing her sister because lena dunham has been abused and criticizing victims of abuse for anything is problematic"

At least two of these articles are themselves responses to criticism from other feminists, so it's (surprise) not like every feminist supports Lena Dunham's creeptastic behavior here. Dunham is famous, and that's working more in her favor than her identity as a feminist. Dunham also self-identifies as an unreliable narrator so it's deepening the suspicion, combined with her confession to control problems over her younger sister is reason enough to not come to her defense. She's a creeper and she sexually abused her younger sister and there are plenty of people, feminist and not who aren't 'chill' about it. The bleating about double standards and 'circling the wagons' is extremely overblown.

[Charismatic]

At least two of these articles are themselves responses to criticism from other feminists, so it's (surprise) not like every feminist supports Lena Dunham's creeptastic behavior here. Dunham is a woman, and that's working more in her favor than her identity as a feminist. Dunham also self-identifies as an unreliable narrator so it's deepening the suspicion, combined with her confession to control problems over her younger sister is reason enough to not come to her defense. She's a creeper and she sexually abused her younger sister and there are plenty of people, feminist and not who aren't 'chill' about it. The bleating about 'circling the wagons' is overblown.

FTFY, otherwise mostly on point

[RKenshin]

The discussion might benefit from having the actual excerpts from the book, rather than hearsay:

“Do we all have uteruses?” I asked my mother when I was seven.

“Yes,” she told me. “We’re born with them, and with all our eggs, but they start out very small. And they aren’t ready to make babies until we’re older.”

I looked at my sister, now a slim, tough one-year-old, and at her tiny belly. I imagined her eggs inside her, like the sack of spider eggs in Charlotte’s Web, and her uterus, the size of a thimble.

“Does her vagina look like mine?”

“I guess so,” my mother said. “Just smaller.”

One day, as I sat in our driveway in Long Island playing with blocks and buckets, my curiosity got the best of me. Grace was sitting up, babbling and smiling, and I leaned down between her legs and carefully spread open her vagina. She didn’t resist, and when I saw what was inside I shrieked. “My mother came running. “Mama, Mama! Grace has something in there!”

My mother didn’t bother asking why I had opened Grace’s vagina. This was within the spectrum of things that I did. She just got on her knees and looked for herself. It quickly became apparent that Grace had stuffed six or seven pebbles in there. My mother removed them patiently while Grace cackled, thrilled that her prank had been such a success.

As she grew, I took to bribing her for her time and affection: one dollar in quarters if I could do her makeup like a “motorcycle chick.” Three pieces of candy if I could kiss her on the lips for five seconds. Whatever she wanted to watch on TV if she would just “relax on me.” Basically, anything a sexual predator might do to woo a small suburban girl I was trying.

I shared a bed with my sister, Grace, until I was seventeen years old. She was afraid to sleep alone and would begin asking me around 5:00 P.M. every day whether she could sleep with me. I put on a big show of saying no, taking pleasure in watching her beg and sulk, but eventually I always relented. Her sticky, muscly little body thrashed beside me every night as I read Anne Sexton, watched reruns of SNL, sometimes even as I slipped my hand into my underwear to figure some stuff out.

The first one isn't very abnormal or a cause for concern in reality, though I question writing about it in a book and describing it in that kind of detail... particularly with the goal of 'humor.' Definitely in poor tastes, but freedom of speech and all (flip side being she opens herself up for people to call it terrible too).

The second, starts to get questionable, but ultimately is still kind of a wash. Certainly wierd and again in poor tastes.

For the third... Masturbating in odd situations with friends/family potentially nearby/present/sleeping/whatever as a teenager probably isn't all that uncommon, but talking about how you did that right after pointing out their "sticky, muscly body" sleeping next to you is pushing it - it makes the passage sound sexual. Certainly is a pretty poor way to describe it, at least.

In any case, I definitely don't think that this is all perfectly acceptable to write about and not expect backlash.... if even acceptable at all (looking at #3).

[Gokku]

How is this not a arrest and register as an sex offender situation?

[Eurell]

How is this not a arrest and register as an sex offender situation?

Which part?

[Gokku]

Idk the parts where she was acting like a sexual predator to her little sister or the part where she was fapping next to her. At the very least some serious questions should be asked about extent of what she really did, it's obviously vague and creepy as fuck.

I'm not saying Lynch her but it definitely should have someone within some form of law enforcement curious.

[Correction]

The discussion might benefit from having the actual excerpts from the book, rather than hearsay:

The first quote doesn't pass the smell test, a one year old girl did not put pebbles in her vagina. Lena did that.

[archibaldcrane]

How is this not a arrest and register as an sex offender situation?

Lol

[archibaldcrane]

The first quote doesn't pass the smell test, a one year old girl did not put pebbles in her vagina. Lena did that.

I agree that her telling of that story is very unlikely.

[Lyall]

The first quote doesn't pass the smell test, a one year old girl did not put pebbles in her vagina. Lena did that.

Yeah. I don't know kids too well, but we're to believe a one year old undressed herself (diapers at that age?), shoved pebbles inside of her own vag and then redressed without anyone noticing? I'd err on the side of her just projecting a motive onto the kid, but I'm not sure it even happened at all. I'm suspicious of everything controversial just being for attention, and given the publicity she's gotten for free over this I wouldn't be surprised if it's all bullshit just to get people talking.

It's not sex-offender type stuff, but it's still not something I'd expect people to defend. "We all did it when we were younger" isn't really a defense here; I've got two brothers and we didn't do anything of that nature. I've got lots of cousins around the same age I saw regularly, and this sort of shit didn't occur.

Boggles my mind that a few pages ago the argument was "Catcalling shouldn't just happen, it's not okay" whereas now there's voices of "look, little kids feel each other up all the time, it's perfectly fine." I'm just gonna wrap myself up over here in my mostly-unmolested safe cis-white-male privilege blanket and pretend this is all fiction.

[Corresapolonia]

I agree that her telling of that story is very unlikely.

But according to anti-rape advocates noone would lie at such a thing:

'Stanford student Elisabeth Dee, class of 2016, one of the organizers of a demonstration called “Carry that Weight” where students were urged to carry a pillow or mattress around for a day to symbolize the burden placed upon survivors of sexual assault, has called on the school to actively reduce the burden of proof required to find someone guilty of sexual assault. Stanford already uses the lowest burden of proof legally permissible, "preponderance of the evidence," and young men now have fewer rights in college sex tribunals than illegals crossing the border, but for Dee, that's too many. She proceeded to mouth a hostility to due process that may be unprecedented in this blog's reporting, and that's saying a lot.
Stanford, Dee clucked, "puts so much emphasis on the burden of proof." The school should not be focusing on "defending the perpetrator, because essentially burden of proof is a defense of the perpetrator.” Dee continued: “No one should have to" prove they've been raped. "You should take people at their word because nobody would lie about this kind of painful experience.” (Both the article and Dee use the term "burden of proof" when it appears they really mean "standard of proof."

Anti-rape advocate wants to do away with burden of proof

how about this:

A gritty new CSI program
CSI: Guilty as Accused
This new show will forego forensics, science, or even due process. Any man accused of a crime will be guilty of said crime. The true crime scene is the abuse any woman feels and what made her that way. The true crime is that a man probably made it that way, and he got away with it.

Special shows will highlight equality and compassion so that men who accuse women are jailed. These special moment programs will display the privilege men have and show men how they should check their privilege and that if they do not, other will do it for them.

A new show on Lifetime… touted by the channel as another way to feel better about your own life...

"Where'd my fucking morals go?"
A redneck mother who got back with her child's molester will host a new talk show. Don;t expect witty insight or introspection. This show is about rednecks.

A special documentary will highlight why girls liking sex is good, and special and empowering, and how males enjoying sex is sick and ugly. DOCUMENTARIAN-ESQUE-ISH production brings you these informative studies.

[Xajii]

lena dunham has made a career out of shock stories and y'all eating this shit up.

no you cannot arrest someone for being a curious little weirdo when they are fucking 7 years old.

good lordy y'all act like you had a complete understanding of sexuality and what is and isn't okay at that age. i sure as fuck didn't.

[Gokku]

How about when she was 17 and still doing so? It's at least borderline statutory rape. Where is her sister in all this I'd be pisssssssed if I was her and not in on the cash cow.

[Correction]

no you cannot arrest someone for being a curious little weirdo when they are fucking 7 years old.

I don't see anybody calling for her arrest.

good lordy y'all act like you had a complete understanding of sexuality and what is and isn't okay at that age. i sure as fuck didn't.

do tell

[Ksandra]

The first quote doesn't pass the smell test, a one year old girl did not put pebbles in her vagina. Lena did that.

I agree with this. Especially when she claims, "Grace cackled, thrilled that her prank had been such a success. " A 1 year old is not going to be cognizant to make that kind of "prank".

Most (all?) kids explore that area when they are young, but usually not until they are two. A 1 year old is probably never going to put their hand down there to begin with, let alone put rocks up it as a joke.


With that said, this is the line that disturbs me the most:

"Basically, anything a sexual predator might do to woo a small suburban girl I was trying. "

It doesn't matter her intent, SHE ADMITS she was doing what a sexual predator would do. I seriously have to wonder what is going on in this woman's head to think this is a good idea to write down for the world to see. At the very least she needs to see a shrink, because there is obviously something not completely wired in her brain to think in under any shape or form that was a smart thing to type.

[Ksandra]

lena dunham has made a career out of shock stories and y'all eating this shit up.

no you cannot arrest someone for being a curious little weirdo when they are fucking 7 years old.

good lordy y'all act like you had a complete understanding of sexuality and what is and isn't okay at that age. i sure as fuck didn't.

The kissing stuff didn't only happen at age 7.

As she grew, I took to bribing her for her time and affection

As grace grew, means as Lena aged.

[Xajii]

I don't see anybody calling for her arrest.

How is this not a arrest and register as an sex offender situation?

do tell

I just didn't understand boundaries, same as her apparently.

I agree with this. Especially when she claims, "Grace cackled, thrilled that her prank had been such a success. " A 1 year old is not going to be cognizant to make that kind of "prank".

Most (all?) kids explore that area when they are young, but usually not until they are two. A 1 year old is probably never going to put their hand down there to begin with, let alone put rocks up it as a joke.


With that said, this is the line that disturbs me the most:

"Basically, anything a sexual predator might do to woo a small suburban girl I was trying. "

It doesn't matter her intent, SHE ADMITS she was doing what a sexual predator would do. I seriously have to wonder what is going on in this woman's head to think this is a good idea to write down for the world to see. At the very least she needs to see a shrink, because there is obviously something not completely wired in her brain to think in under any shape or form that was a smart thing to type.

First of all, it seems to me like the only thing we know for sure is that she implied diddling herself while her sister was asleep next to her when she was 17. Sounds like a horny insensitive teenager, not someone getting off on or abusing their sister.

"As she grew" could mean a lot of things, but I think it is callous to assume she was bribing this girl for kisses by the time Lena was into her teenage years. Any time from the age of 7 to 12 or so kids have sexual curioity but no concept of boundaries or what anything even really is. This is well, well, well documented.

Again, Lena Dunham lives off of shock value. She wrote this way on purpose. She compared herself to a sexual predator not to imply she is a predator, but to generate shock. This is not hard stuff to understand.

[Correction]

I missed Gokku's post. Silly.

The difference between Lena being a horny insensitive teenager and a controlling sexual abuser is painted all over the quotes from her book. She tells a gross story about the time she played with her sister's vagina for a laugh. That's agency taken away from her sister in service to a 'hey look at how quirky I am yuk yuk yuk' moment. More about her control issues here:

“Basically, it’s like I can’t keep any of my own secrets and I consider Grace to be an extension of me, and therefore I couldn’t handle the fact that she’s a very private person with her own value system and her own aesthetic and that we do different things.”

Lena’s essays delve further into stories of body image, dating, psychotherapy and familial relationships, one story involving Grace coming out as a lesbian to Lena during Grace’s senior year of high school. According to the article, “Though Grace wasn’t quite ready to tell their parents, Dunham was unable to contain herself and came out to them for her.”

You don't out someone who doesn't want to be out, and since Lena sees her sister as an extension of her own ego, the outing is all about Lena, not Grace. Lena has been positively reprehensible towards her sister and to Lena, it's comedy material for sale. Fuck that shit.

[Gokku]

I've already stated that arrest is a little to far but I'm totally waiting for the Law and order SVU twist of she really did it!