Feminism Thread

[Thunder]

Because the environment is hostile to them. I think that much is pretty clear. Certainly there may be other factors, but when you start seeing such huge disparities in demographics, i think it's safe to say a big part of it is because they just aren't welcome.

Is is pretty clear. Yes. What are you doing about it? Where is the proposed solution, plan, ANYTHING by feminists in this shirt thing? I know, I know, you'll say "raising awareness" ... is this shirt campaign of "raising awareness" going to help or hurt the goal of increasing the # of women in science? Remember, the goal is to increase # of women in science, NOT to win some internet holier-than-thou argument, right? You won the battle.. but way to lose the war... would you rather have the high ground over someone or actually get some things done?

Pleeeeeease stop defending this hate bait bullshit idk what you do in RL, I'm not involved in feminism in any actual capacity, but if you (or anyone else is) they should condemn this pretty staunchly. This is the type of BS that eats away at the ground feminism is to stand on.

The goal is to promote women in science because there's a huge disparity... what do the SJWs do? They make some scientist cry after the biggest day in his life. Wow, way to go, that'll sure change the opinions of scientists + science educators out there have on women AND the opinions women have on science. You're really going to stand by this as an adequate means of going about change?

Promote women in science in other ways. Sure it isn't as internally fulfilling as yelling at someone over the internet, but changing social constructs wasn't going to be easy. Feminists should be telling these people to go yell into a pillow instead of posting on twitter while real work gets done

[Tarage]

You know what the main point here is?

Pick your fucking battles. Yeah, his shirt might offend someone. But on the scale of importance, is him changing his shirt suddenly going to fix everything? Fuck no it isn't, and you fucking know it.

Let's say you have to move a mountain. The mountain is fucking huge, and made up of different sized rocks. Some rocks are boulders, and others are pebbles. You point at a pebble and go "SEE?! THIS IS THE MOUNTAIN WE HAVE TO MOVE! WHY HAVE WE NOT MOVED IT YET?!"

Why not point at the boulder? Why not start with the bigger issues and work your way down to "that dude wore a shirt that offends a few people". Why is this such a difficult thing for you to understand? Was slavery tackled by pointing out that black people couldn't vote? Or did they fucking start with the fact that they were slaves and work from there?

Pick your fucking battles. If you throw a grade A temper tantrum every time some dude makes a minor mistake, when the time comes to fix actual misogyny, people will be so fucking sick of you that they will ignore you. Oh wait. That's ALREADY FUCKING HAPPENING.

[chiyio]

While I don't think that his choice of shirt was a particularly wise one for many reasons, I find myself disagreeing with a lot of the points you make. But this one stood out in particular. Are you implying that men who go into science are typically popular studs? That certainly isn't my experience. Even a mild interest in math and science in boys past the age of 10 rewards them with regular beatings, an onslaught of mockery, and social ostracization by peers, mainly because these interests tend to correlate with introverted and socially awkward personality traits. As many of these individuals shun the social limelight, they shy away in fields where the focus of their work is machines or abstract concepts rather than people, where in many subfields they aren't necessarily paid very much.

There are definitely some things that make certain fields of science or engineering uninviting to women (plenty of scientific fields have large majorities of women), but I don't see how boys are overtly encouraged to go into the sciences any more than girls. The trope of the nerdy, unattractive male science student with his head down the toilet or stuffed into a locker is so overplayed it's almost absurd.

Also, the idea that there is an arbitrary, self-reinforcing, self-perpetuating dynamic - that people's expectations of a particular field perpetuate the gender balance in that field - would lead us to expect that representation would move to the extremes. If you as a minority are discouraged to enter the field due to covert messaging and social cues being sent your way then there should be a negative feedback loop that causes fewer and fewer people from minorities to enter.

But in many, many cases that has not happened. As soon as an arbitrary barrier is taken down the genders find a natural balance. Take veterinarians for example, 50 years ago it was practically impossible for women to be veterinarians… today they represent the majority by far. The same goes for psychology and developmental linguistics which also have majorities of women, Clinical laboratory technologists are over 70 percent women…. The self-perpetuating feedback loops you allude to haven't really played out as you'd expect in these areas.

I don't doubt that discrimination exists, I just don't think it's the main reason for the large imbalances we see in certain fields.

This post didn't get the attention it deserved. It brought up things most people never bother to look into or learn about, much less address. I thought it interesting that everybody completely ignored the post.

If you want a better understanding of the gender differences in STEM fields this is a great debate that really lays out all the data.

There's a good write up about it and a full transcript plus all the slides from the debate here. http://edge.org/3rd_culture/debate05...e05_index.html




*also, lulz at Nynja's gray shirt joke, heh.

[hey]

My point

Well, no one ever claimed there was only one cause.

Which is why when someone asks/examines "why aren't there more black people in tech?" the response isn't usually "because black people aren't welcome" or "because the STEM field is full of racists"... it's more often explained to be an issue with the culture and environment.

But then someone asks the same question about women, and suddenly culture and environment don't matter and it's all really because the STEM field is full of bigotted misogynists?

Yes, I'm talking about the same thing. When boys are given puzzles to put together as a kid, or legos to build, and girls get dolls, this is sexist, and part of the culture, and also contributes to making them feel unwelcome. A lot of it is probably not intentional, but continues anyway because people don't think about the little things they do, because everyone else does the same thing, and they don't realize how harmful it is.

Is is pretty clear. Yes. What are you doing about it? Where is the proposed solution, plan, ANYTHING by feminists in this shirt thing? I know, I know, you'll say "raising awareness" ... is this shirt campaign of "raising awareness" going to help or hurt the goal of increasing the # of women in science? Remember, the goal is to increase # of women in science, NOT to win some internet holier-than-thou argument, right? You won the battle.. but way to lose the war... would you rather have the high ground over someone or actually get some things done?

Promote women in science in other ways. Sure it isn't as internally fulfilling as yelling at someone over the internet, but changing social constructs wasn't going to be easy. Feminists should be telling these people to go yell into a pillow instead of posting on twitter while real work gets done

Raising awareness isn't just some catch phrase. Again, a lot of problems aren't really intentional or malicious so raising awareness of them can allow people to think about things that can be harmful, that they probably never even thought about once in their life before, and reconsider whether they should continue doing those things. That is useful. It can make people reevaluate their decisions, and actions.

What would you rather us do? Go out and search for parents giving their daughters dolls instead of legos and buy them all legos?

Talking about issues IS the real work.

[Tarage]

Except you aren't. You are shouting at the issue. You are picking it as your flash point, as if it's something that's so egregious that it requires instant attention. And guess what? People are turned off because of it. You are seen as crying wolf over a shirt. Why not find instances where a woman was actually bullied? Where sexual harassment actually happened? Something to point at and go "We need to fix this!". Stop pointing at pebbles when you and I both know there are boulders we should be talking about.

Let me put it this way. A black kid was shot and killed. Is that issue worth fighting over? Or how about some girl wearing blackface. Which is more important to fight right now?

[Priran]

Raising awareness isn't just some catch phrase....Talking about issues IS the real work.

Source: Joseph Kony

[Mazmaz]

Everyone wants to be a feminist but nobody wants to do the work. All you want to do is whine and complain because it's easy and makes you feel good - no research, no ACTUAL data on problems keeping women outside of science other than mah feelings. It's the least scientific way to go about things, which is ironic

I've wanted to make this post for a while and I think now's a good time as any. It's gonna make you lose your shits I'm sure, but bear with me for a second. Science and the scientific method are mostly a culmination of white, settler colonialist values that have been imposed on most of the world and have their own inherent agendas and biases.

DON'T GET ME WRONG, I still think it's the best system of values we could come up with since we're not a perfect species, but that does NOT mean that you can discount things like gender studies and the experiences and feelings of women/survivors/minorities. A bunch of men sitting around shouting SCIENCE, EVIDENCE, SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE for every single situation and claim is obnoxious and dishonest.

And before you ask, no this does not mean that I think gender studies and experiences and feelings of women/survivors/minorities should outweigh or even be treated equally as scientific evidence. I think that depends on the situation that you wish to analyze. Do we need to form hypotheses and running experiments to find out whether a shirt is deemed discriminatory and offensive in a professional workplace? No, fuck you. There's enough of a majority of women and others complaining about it for us to figure that shit out without scientific evidence. So why do women and feminists complain about stuff like this? Because that's important too.

[hey]

Except you aren't. You are shouting at the issue. You are picking it as your flash point, as if it's something that's so egregious that it requires instant attention. And guess what? People are turned off because of it. You are seen as crying wolf over a shirt. Why not find instances where a woman was actually bullied? Where sexual harassment actually happened? Something to point at and go "We need to fix this!". Stop pointing at pebbles when you and I both know there are boulders we should be talking about.

Let me put it this way. A black kid was shot and killed. Is that issue worth fighting over? Or how about some girl wearing blackface. Which is more important to fight right now?

Good thing there's more than one feminist, so we can worry about every single problem at once instead of just picking the one most important.

[Blubbartron]

I've wanted to make this post for a while and I think now's a good time as any. It's gonna make you lose your shits I'm sure, but bear with me for a second. Science and the scientific method are mostly a culmination of white, settler colonialist values that have been imposed on most of the world and have their own inherent agendas and biases.

DON'T GET ME WRONG, I still think it's the best system of values we could come up with since we're not a perfect species, but that does NOT mean that you can discount things like gender studies and the experiences and feelings of women/survivors/minorities. A bunch of men sitting around shouting SCIENCE, EVIDENCE, SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE for every single situation and claim is obnoxious and dishonest.

And before you ask, no this does not mean that I think gender studies and experiences and feelings of women/survivors/minorities should outweigh or even be treated equally as scientific evidence. I think that depends on the situation that you wish to analyze. Do we need to form hypotheses and running experiments to find out whether a shirt is deemed discriminatory and offensive in a professional workplace? No, fuck you. There's enough of a majority of women and others complaining about it for us to figure that shit out without scientific evidence. So why do women and feminists complain about stuff like this? Because that's important too.

Preserving this in a quote for the single most retarded thing I've ever read. I just... I don't even...

[Teryu]

I've wanted to make this post for a while and I think now's a good time as any. It's gonna make you lose your shits I'm sure, but bear with me for a second. Science and the scientific method are mostly a culmination of white, settler colonialist values that have been imposed on most of the world and have their own inherent agendas and biases.

DON'T GET ME WRONG, I still think it's the best system of values we could come up with since we're not a perfect species, but that does NOT mean that you can discount things like gender studies and the experiences and feelings of women/survivors/minorities. A bunch of men sitting around shouting SCIENCE, EVIDENCE, SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE for every single situation and claim is obnoxious and dishonest.

And before you ask, no this does not mean that I think gender studies and experiences and feelings of women/survivors/minorities should outweigh or even be treated equally as scientific evidence. I think that depends on the situation that you wish to analyze. Do we need to form hypotheses and running experiments to find out whether a shirt is deemed discriminatory and offensive in a professional workplace? No, fuck you. There's enough of a majority of women and others complaining about it for us to figure that shit out without scientific evidence. So why do women and feminists complain about stuff like this? Because that's important too.

"Your science ends where my feelings begin."

[Priran]

I've wanted to make this post for a while and I think now's a good time as any. It's gonna make you lose your shits I'm sure, but bear with me for a second. Science and the scientific method are mostly a culmination of white, settler colonialist values that have been imposed on most of the world and have their own inherent agendas and biases.

DON'T GET ME WRONG, I still think it's the best system of values we could come up with since we're not a perfect species, but that does NOT mean that you can discount things like gender studies and the experiences and feelings of women/survivors/minorities. A bunch of men sitting around shouting SCIENCE, EVIDENCE, SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE for every single situation and claim is obnoxious and dishonest.

And before you ask, no this does not mean that I think gender studies and experiences and feelings of women/survivors/minorities should outweigh or even be treated equally as scientific evidence. I think that depends on the situation that you wish to analyze. Do we need to form hypotheses and running experiments to find out whether a shirt is deemed discriminatory and offensive in a professional workplace? No, fuck you. There's enough of a majority of women and others complaining about it for us to figure that shit out without scientific evidence. So why do women and feminists complain about stuff like this? Because that's important too.

I don't think admitting your ideology is based on an appeal to emotion and a rejection of logic is quite the slam dunk you'd like to think it is

[GoggleHead]

Fuck your feels.

[Priran]

Also the scientific method was invented by the Egyptians but if you feel like it was white people then who am I to argue, I'm sure history is a colonialist construct too

[Mazmaz]

Except you aren't. You are shouting at the issue. You are picking it as your flash point, as if it's something that's so egregious that it requires instant attention. And guess what? People are turned off because of it. You are seen as crying wolf over a shirt. Why not find instances where a woman was actually bullied? Where sexual harassment actually happened? Something to point at and go "We need to fix this!". Stop pointing at pebbles when you and I both know there are boulders we should be talking about.

Let me put it this way. A black kid was shot and killed. Is that issue worth fighting over? Or how about some girl wearing blackface. Which is more important to fight right now?

Except this pebble leads to the boulders. It doesn't matter how much I can point to accomplished scientists who get away with awful shit and apologized by everyone around them because of their accomplishments, because there will always be:

Didn't help you.

[Thunder]

Raising awareness isn't just some catch phrase. Again, a lot of problems aren't really intentional or malicious so raising awareness of them can allow people to think about things that can be harmful, that they probably never even thought about once in their life before, and reconsider whether they should continue doing those things. That is useful. It can make people reevaluate their decisions, and actions.

What would you rather us do? Go out and search for parents giving their daughters dolls instead of legos and buy them all legos?

Talking about issues IS the real work.

This shirt business, and other crap like it, is not "talking about the issue". Stop fooling yourself, there is no room for talking about the issue in the media prints and twitter comments, it's full of hate. And "getting people to think about things they never once thought about" is right... but you know what people like that are thinking after hearing this news? Wow, fuck those annoying little bitches. That's what they're thinking.

Getting to the position of leading a critically acclaimed science panel and ending it remarking how it's a shame only 1 of the 10 members among them was a women and telling thousands of avid science listeners that we need more women in science is real work. Getting yourself in the NSF as the youngest women ever to be evaluating and giving green lights to grants is real work. Being a women with a science doctorate teaching at a big university and making staff/students aware of the issue all with a smile in her face is real work.

Tweeting about it POSITIVELY (like many scientists do) is REAL WORK. Getting POSITIVE DISCUSSION going is REAL WORK.

You're not doing real work... this is negative and inflammatory. You think conversations stemming from this shirt thing are going to lead to anything positive among your target audience? Be real, is this how you think the hearts and minds of people will change? Say, for example, the scientist who was brought to tears after the biggest day in his life - what do you think he feels about women in science as a result of this? What would you feel if thousands of people walked all over you, called you names, and you were forced to apologize to them after?

What would you rather us do? Go out and search for parents giving their daughters dolls instead of legos and buy them all legos?

lol, no, don't know where that came from but let's run with the metaphor I guess... instead of supporting hate campaigns targeting parents that give their sons legos, daughters dolls, and making them cry apologizing the day after, I'd rather you support campaigns (or start your own) that positively reinforce parents that give their daughters/boys a range of toys

Except you aren't. You are shouting at the issue. You are picking it as your flash point, as if it's something that's so egregious that it requires instant attention. And guess what? People are turned off because of it. You are seen as crying wolf over a shirt. Why not find instances where a woman was actually bullied? Where sexual harassment actually happened? Something to point at and go "We need to fix this!". Stop pointing at pebbles when you and I both know there are boulders we should be talking about.

Let me put it this way. A black kid was shot and killed. Is that issue worth fighting over? Or how about some girl wearing blackface. Which is more important to fight right now?

Tarage, I don't think you're doing this justice, either. I don't think we'll find some egregious event that's to blame for women not going into science. The issues women are facing today are much more insidious. That's why hey, and others, are seriously going at this shirt thing, because they mean it when they say it's part of a LARGER picture, but you can't just deconstruct it for the lay man to see and say something like "oh yeah this needs to go" like you could with separate drinking fountains back in the day.

Go about it with positivity, I say. Spread ideas where women love being women, it's good to be a women, science is for women too, etc etc. Instead of going after men in the world and tearing them down one by one


Edit: oh cool, the first time I don't ctrl+a/c my shit and refresh the page before I post someone posts something interesting! I'll edit my response in a few mins@maz

[Priran]

Except this pebble leads to the boulders. It doesn't matter how much I can point to accomplished scientists who get away with awful shit and apologized by everyone around them because of their accomplishments, because there will always be:

Yeah, we should ban people from science for being what we judge as bad!

One glaring, never-addressed problem with SJW ideology is that it encourages societal change with the hubris that it will become the dominant mode of thinking and stay that way forever.

[Charismatic]

I've wanted to make this post for a while and I think now's a good time as any. It's gonna make you lose your shits I'm sure, but bear with me for a second. Science and the scientific method are mostly a culmination of white, settler colonialist values that have been imposed on most of the world and have their own inherent agendas and biases.

DON'T GET ME WRONG, I still think it's the best system of values we could come up with since we're not a perfect species, but that does NOT mean that you can discount things like gender studies and the experiences and feelings of women/survivors/minorities. A bunch of men sitting around shouting SCIENCE, EVIDENCE, SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE for every single situation and claim is obnoxious and dishonest.

And before you ask, no this does not mean that I think gender studies and experiences and feelings of women/survivors/minorities should outweigh or even be treated equally as scientific evidence. I think that depends on the situation that you wish to analyze. Do we need to form hypotheses and running experiments to find out whether a shirt is deemed discriminatory and offensive in a professional workplace? No, fuck you. There's enough of a majority of women and others complaining about it for us to figure that shit out without scientific evidence. So why do women and feminists complain about stuff like this? Because that's important too.

Okay, honestly... what?

[Tarage]

Except this pebble leads to the boulders. It doesn't matter how much I can point to accomplished scientists who get away with awful shit and apologized by everyone around them because of their accomplishments, because there will always be:

You completely do not understand the concept of picking battles do you?

[Mazmaz]

Yeah, we should ban people from science for being what we judge as bad!

One glaring, never-addressed problem with SJW ideology is that it encourages societal change with the hubris that it will become the dominant mode of thinking and stay that way forever.

So glad to know that you consider men who get women 20 years their junior drunk to have sex with them (rape), who pose rape and death threats upon women, and who use vulgar and misogynistic language towards women, as big a victims as gay men who were castrated for their sexuality.

[Tarage]

So glad to know that you consider men who get women 20 years their junior drunk to have sex with them (rape), who pose rape and death threats upon women, and who use vulgar and misogynistic language towards women, as big a victims as gay men who were castrated for their sexuality.

Okay. Why not pick that shit to bitch about? I'm pretty sure everyone here would agree with you. That shit is wrong, clearly.

Wearing a shirt with some semi-naked ladies on it? Not such a big fucking deal as that one. You can't treat them with the same ichor.