Feminism Thread

[hey]

With respect to Nynja, I proved 3 or so pages back that he either has no reading comprehension, or doesn't read 75% of a post. So he can expect more of the same in the future.

As for yourself and others, you've repeatedly stated that you'd like feminism to be "moderate and considerate" in the arguments it makes. I find this ironic in juxtaposition to all the posts in the last few pages essentially saying how little these men care about whether they make someone uncomfortable and how it's on them to handle it. Basically men don't have to be considerate about anything they do or say, but women and other minorities have to tailor their arguments to be moderate and considerate of men and make sure they don't make them uncomfortable with the solutions they propose. Why should they expect any different though when our societal view is that women are just an extension of men?

You can see why that might get exhausting sometimes to debate against. Have a good weekend, I probably won't be around until Sunday.

Of course, it only matters how the glorious straight white cis male master race feels.

[notorious bum]

The Intercept just put the knife in Rolling Stone a bit, probably kinda therapeutic after losing one of the best journalists to them lol

Hey, Feminist Internet Collective: Good Reporting Does Not Have To Be Sensitive
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2...ne-rape-thing/

[Thunder]

With respect to Nynja, I proved 3 or so pages back that he either has no reading comprehension, or doesn't read 75% of a post. So he can expect more of the same in the future.

As for yourself and others, you've repeatedly stated that you'd like feminism to be "moderate and considerate" in the arguments it makes. I find this ironic in juxtaposition to all the posts in the last few pages essentially saying how little these men care about whether they make someone uncomfortable and how it's on them to handle it. Basically men don't have to be considerate about anything they do or say, but women and other minorities have to tailor their arguments to be moderate and considerate of men and make sure they don't make them uncomfortable with the solutions they propose. Why should they expect any different though when our societal view is that women are just an extension of men?

You can see why that might get exhausting sometimes to debate against. Have a good weekend, I probably won't be around until Sunday.

Of course, it only matters how the glorious straight white cis male master race feels.

So, to be clear, I haven't weighed in on the all men are rapists thing too heavily because I actually believe it's always on the man to make both parties comfortable (but only in interactions.. I reserve the right to ignore a girl if I think she's ugly/boring/crazy) and I have many NOT moderate/considerate views on how sex/relationships should be handled by men and women.. so if I wanted you to behave moderately/considerately that'd make me a hypocrite who doesn't believe his view is able to transcend race/gender/culture/etc and be useful to everyone

So.. I don't think I want feminism to be moderate and considerate... you're drawing black and whites here, and there's much more to it. For one, I think my position is different than most of the guys here, and if you're lumping me in with them, I don't think you really get what I'm saying?

Here's what I DON'T want you to "be" as a feminist. A person who's unhappy in their own skin. A person who tells themselves the story that the world is harsh, unfair, and unjust so that you're absolved of responsibility. A person who better relates to hate, complaining, and whining than they relate to coming together, fun, and love. You have a unique perspective on life and instead of educating, you're trying to get the majority, privileged, people to understand by being edgy with hate talk? I think that's retarded, and that's pretty much the crux of what I have to say about how "feminism" behaves

What feminism (your version, anyway) wants, and my opinion on it, is another story. Like, just above I said that men should (and are) responsible for both parties being comfortable. I think that's good. I don't think men and women can be absolute equals in ANYTHING EXCEPT the eyes of the law, public education, and the workplace (but that's law, kinda). Sex and relationships, on the other hand, can't work if men/women behaved the same way, imo. So I have concerns when you or hey want to impose rules for social settings when I can't reasonably believe you two really get it. You know what I mean? I hope I'm not losing anyone here, but I don't think you realize the different worlds of social bubbles out there and I can't help but identify your view as one I had in highschool where I wasn't the cool kid and just wanted, subconsciously, everyone to be as miserable as I was so I had these strange ideals of how the world SHOULD work.

Rather than understanding how the world actually works and using that to leverage my own success

I want everyone to be successful and fulfilled in love/sex. The things you + hey (and others here + in other threads) say is SO anti-sex and wouldn't get far in the world of "winning friends and influencing people" that it's no wonder the subforum needs moderation for all the pent up rage that explodes in people's posts lol

I realize that's long but fuck it. Going to sit by my computer F5ing till sunday, eagerly awaiting your reply. hey can hold me over 'till then, though w(*^_^)

[BaneTheBrawler]

WHY AM I NOT ALLOWED TO COMMENT ON THIS THE WAY I WANT TO, THE WAY I HAVE TO, WE HAVE TO.

Jokes are okay, personal attacks are not. I'm sure there's plenty of room in that comment for compromise.

It is, after all, expanded on further down.

[NynJa]

I was alluding more towards "expanded asshole", and as a mod you definitely wouldnt like it.

[Charismatic]

I was alluding more towards "expanded asshole", and as a mod you definitely wouldnt like it.

I think you mean 'would like it'.
Remember: Mods = ****.

[Day]

Mods dont equal 4 stars

[BaneTheBrawler]

no. mods = in on that expanded asshole.

[BaneTheBrawler]

anyway, as long as your jokes don't attack someone personally, you should be aight. laughs are an important part of poopdeck, too.

[Charismatic]

Mods dont equal 4 stars

True, but I'm not trying to get an infraction.

[hey]

So, to be clear, I haven't weighed in on the all men are rapists thing

Well there is no all men are rapist thing. Dropping "potential" from that changes the entire meaning. Potential means they could be, but you have no way of knowing. It doesn't mean they are, or even that it's likely that they are. It just means you don't know if they are or are not. Which is true.

So.. I don't think I want feminism to be moderate and considerate... you're drawing black and whites here, and there's much more to it. For one, I think my position is different than most of the guys here, and if you're lumping me in with them, I don't think you really get what I'm saying?

Yeah, i think that was odd to post as a reply to you, but it does apply to a number of other posters here. Even if i think some of your views are ridiculous, you do seem willing to listen, and seriously discuss things. I think you're probably about the most reasonable non-feminist here.

Here's what I DON'T want you to "be" as a feminist. A person who's unhappy in their own skin. A person who tells themselves the story that the world is harsh, unfair, and unjust so that you're absolved of responsibility. A person who better relates to hate, complaining, and whining than they relate to coming together, fun, and love. You have a unique perspective on life and instead of educating, you're trying to get the majority, privileged, people to understand by being edgy with hate talk? I think that's retarded, and that's pretty much the crux of what I have to say about how "feminism" behaves

Well, the thing is, the world is harsh, unfair, and unjust. It's easy for you to say that it's not so bad, but for others, it really is quite bad, and it affects our lives every single day.

So I have concerns when you or hey want to impose rules for social settings when I can't reasonably believe you two really get it. You know what I mean? I hope I'm not losing anyone here, but I don't think you realize the different worlds of social bubbles out there and I can't help but identify your view as one I had in highschool where I wasn't the cool kid and just wanted, subconsciously, everyone to be as miserable as I was so I had these strange ideals of how the world SHOULD work.

Sorry, you did lose me.

Rather than understanding how the world actually works and using that to leverage my own success

You can't exactly leverage harassment and discrimination into success.

I want everyone to be successful and fulfilled in love/sex. The things you + hey (and others here + in other threads) say is SO anti-sex and wouldn't get far in the world of "winning friends and influencing people" that it's no wonder the subforum needs moderation for all the pent up rage that explodes in people's posts lol

I don't think so. You're not going to find love or sex by bothering people on the street. If that's what you want, you'd be better off somewhere where people are open to it. And then, by all means, have at it. But otherwise, you have to remember, women are actual people too, not just sex toys. Even if it does work for you, and makes your life better, it doesn't matter, because you are bothering and stressing people, probably by the hundreds. Your happiness should not be coming at the expense of theirs.

[Thunder]

Well, the thing is, the world is harsh, unfair, and unjust. It's easy for you to say that it's not so bad, but for others, it really is quite bad, and it affects our lives every single day.

I get that, I get that so much. More than you can know I do (totally disconnected from privilege or any notion of it, though.. I don't wanna open that can of worms). The way I see is like this:

People usually start out saying the world is bad and I am a victim of circumstance.

Then it's, the world is actually very good and everything that happens (bad or good) is just for my growth.

THEN it's, the world is actually very bad (cause it's true, it's pretty fucked up and unfair..) and I will have to hustle harder than I ever imagined to get what I want, nothing is guaranteed.

And it goes on and on but I wont even mention the rest.

Anyway, I'm no psychologist but I get a strong feeling the "feminists" here are in that first paradigm. And I don't buy the "we're always angry and upset because the oppression is so heavy" bit. It's not THAT bad to be a woman today and be so blinded by the weight - you can still gravitate towards peace, love, coming togetherness, acceptance, and fun in your core message RATHER than hate, rape, this guy's an idiot, that guy should get locked up forever, this guy's no better than a rapist, and a rapist is the worst thing in the U N I V E R S E. People that have successfully changed our world (ghandi, mlk, etc) did it by gravitating towards the former of those two sides. If they gravitated towards the latter they would NOT have been successful.

I think I can prove you're in the first paradigm if you can honestly tell me whether you feel better after complaining about someone or after complimenting someone. Which do you see yourself saying more often?: "That nynja guy is such a fucking putz, god damn", vs, "that thunder guy is so well-spoken, willing to listen, and probably a reeeeally cool guy in real life"

Sorry, you did lose me.

Ok, here's my best shot at further explaining without writing a novel,

I don't think so. You're not going to find love or sex by bothering people on the street. If that's what you want, you'd be better off somewhere where people are open to it. And then, by all means, have at it. But otherwise, you have to remember, women are actual people too, not just sex toys. Even if it does work for you, and makes your life better, it doesn't matter, because you are bothering and stressing people, probably by the hundreds. Your happiness should not be coming at the expense of theirs.

I do find love on the street by "bothering people". All the time. Some women don't have the time in their days to keep going out to places where "people are more open to it". Sometimes I don't either. That's the world I don't think you understand. Likewise, I am 99% sure I am not bothering the people I interact with and I do NOT treat women like sex toys when I'm doing that, that's absurd and further makes me think you have no idea about the things guys like I do. It's really easy for me to make the mistake of thinking you've only ever seen a man be a loser, creep, or rapist. Treating a girl like an object is literally the OPPOSITE end of the spectrum. I love meaningful connections, and most girls do too (hell, most PEOPLE do) so it isn't so far fetched that if you come in authentically and non-needy people will usually like you. Always foster win-win, it works in winning partners over in business, it works in winning people over in friendships, and it works in winning over sexual partners.

So, when you make comments like, "men should never be bothering women they don't know in public" you're trying to debate a point where you only understand your point of view and you've never been on this other side of things. It isn't like you're not welcome... but your attitude today (I think, obviously idk you in rl, so this is purely my opinion) wouldn't let you flourish in that environment

I want to be clear though, I'm not "worried" about feminists taking this away from me. No matter what laws come up or what social stigmas rise to keep guys out it'll make it that much easier for me. I genuinely just want to do my best to explain the view I have come to have about sex/relationships to you/maz because it'd mean a lot to me if I could develop my argument enough to get through to either of you two

You can't exactly leverage harassment and discrimination into success.

You're competing against the 10/10 white male. They can get by drunk, stupid, and lazy. You'll have to work 10x as hard and make sure the shit you put out is gold to achieve the same thing. Are you, on a fundamental level, opposed to that world?

[Zeb]

You can't exactly leverage harassment and discrimination into success.

Yeah, no one ever becomes stronger by overcoming adversity in their lives.

[Tarage]

Well there is no all men are rapist thing. Dropping "potential" from that changes the entire meaning. Potential means they could be, but you have no way of knowing. It doesn't mean they are, or even that it's likely that they are. It just means you don't know if they are or are not. Which is true.

That's like saying all women are potentially pedophiles.

Saying statements like that is stupid. Everyone has the potential to be everything. That's not an excuse to treat everyone as such.

[NynJa]

Well there is no all men are rapist thing. Dropping "potential" from that changes the entire meaning. Potential means they could be, but you have no way of knowing. It doesn't mean they are, or even that it's likely that they are. It just means you don't know if they are or are not. Which is true.

Yeah, you're just judging all men as potential rapists, guilty until proven innocent, right?

True, but I'm not trying to get an infraction.

And I was going to mention someones asshole getting expanded, that would be multiple infractions!

[hey]

Anyway, I'm no psychologist but I get a strong feeling the "feminists" here are in that first paradigm. And I don't buy the "we're always angry and upset because the oppression is so heavy" bit. It's not THAT bad to be a woman today and be so blinded by the weight - you can still gravitate towards peace, love, coming togetherness, acceptance, and fun in your core message RATHER than hate, rape, this guy's an idiot, that guy should get locked up forever, this guy's no better than a rapist, and a rapist is the worst thing in the U N I V E R S E. People that have successfully changed our world (ghandi, mlk, etc) did it by gravitating towards the former of those two sides. If they gravitated towards the latter they would NOT have been successful.

I think I can prove you're in the first paradigm if you can honestly tell me whether you feel better after complaining about someone or after complimenting someone. Which do you see yourself saying more often?: "That nynja guy is such a fucking putz, god damn", vs, "that thunder guy is so well-spoken, willing to listen, and probably a reeeeally cool guy in real life"

I don't think we are really as angry as you seem to think. For me, it really is the oppression. I am harassed every single day over being trans, by people who don't think i even deserve to live. It's extremely upsetting, but it doesn't really make me that angry. More than that, it really just makes me want to discuss these problems, and try to work out why they happen, and how we can work on trying to improve them, because if it can make life even a tiny bit easier for others, then i think there is no better thing i could possibly do with my time than that. For me, it's really not about myself. There's no hope for me. I really just want to do some good, even if it's just a tiny bit, for others, who have a tough life made tougher by people who don't realize the harm they are doing. I really don't spend so much time discussing these things because i'm angry. I don't know about others' motives though.

I do find love on the street by "bothering people". All the time. Some women don't have the time in their days to keep going out to places where "people are more open to it". Sometimes I don't either. That's the world I don't think you understand. Likewise, I am 99% sure I am not bothering the people I interact with and I do NOT treat women like sex toys when I'm doing that, that's absurd and further makes me think you have no idea about the things guys like I do. It's really easy for me to make the mistake of thinking you've only ever seen a man be a loser, creep, or rapist. Treating a girl like an object is literally the OPPOSITE end of the spectrum. I love meaningful connections, and most girls do too (hell, most PEOPLE do) so it isn't so far fetched that if you come in authentically and non-needy people will usually like you. Always foster win-win, it works in winning partners over in business, it works in winning people over in friendships, and it works in winning over sexual partners.

So, when you make comments like, "men should never be bothering women they don't know in public" you're trying to debate a point where you only understand your point of view and you've never been on this other side of things. It isn't like you're not welcome... but your attitude today (I think, obviously idk you in rl, so this is purely my opinion) wouldn't let you flourish in that environment

It's not that you never should, it's that you shouldn't if you have no reason to believe they wish to speak to you, or especially if they are doing something (such as walking somewhere).

You're competing against the 10/10 white male. They can get by drunk, stupid, and lazy. You'll have to work 10x as hard and make sure the shit you put out is gold to achieve the same thing. Are you, on a fundamental level, opposed to that world?

Yes, of course. Of course the world is never going to be fair, but when the difference between two near-identical people, who really only differ in skin color, sexual orientation, gender, etc can leave one of them hundreds of times better off than the other, it's just a little absurd.

[hey]

Yeah, you're just judging all men as potential rapists, guilty until proven innocent, right?

No one is judging anyone of anything. But if you don't know, you better be prepared for the worst. Don't assume someone you don't know is safe to be around, and keep your guard up, and be prepared, just in case they are not. That is the message you are supposed to take from "all men are potential rapists".

Like, which is it? Do you want women to worry about their own safety, or not?

[Charismatic]

My question is: Why don't you see every woman as a potential rapist? (The fact that you don't is where this kind of dips into sexism).
Why don't you see every person as a potential serial killer?
Why don't you see everyone as a potential anything that you fear?

If you want to make the argument that all men have the potential to rape, you need to realize that everyone has the potential to do you some harm regardless of what. If you want to live in that world of fear, go right ahead. It doesn't make it any more rational to do so though.

[Not Kuno]

If you want to make the argument that all men have the potential to rape, you need to realize that everyone has the potential to do you some harm regardless of what.

Women are equal to men in every way imaginable. Except for all the bad stuff men do. That's all them.

[Brill Weave]

True, but I'm not trying to get an infraction.

I heard infraction and came running!