Feminism Thread

[Andalusian girls]

Should everyone never be trusted ever

not until they prove they can be. lesson male+female oughta learn by heart

[Koul]

not until they prove they can be. lesson male+female oughta learn by heart

I suppose that's true. I usually am cautiously optimistic with people and their dependability. I don't instantly assume they're shitbags but also don't assume they're perfect angels that do nothing wrong.

[hey]

I think you guys are still confused about what potential means

[hey]

I suppose that's true. I usually am cautiously optimistic with people and their dependability. I don't instantly assume they're shitbags but also don't assume they're perfect angels that do nothing wrong.

That is the lesson you are supposed to take from it. Be careful around people you don't know. That doesn't mean never trust them ever, or think of them as terrible people. It means be careful, because assuming they are perfect angels can get you killed. Once you actually know someone, you can then make an informed decision. But until then, you have no idea, so be careful.

How many times do i have to say this?

[kuronosan]

Potential is the wrong word. 1/10 M&Ms don't have the potential to kill you. It will.

[hey]

That picture was just stupid.

[Priran]

"I'm progressive! Let me prove it by using the same argument people on Fox News use to justify profiling Muslims."

This isn't your average doublethink. This is advanced doublethink.

[Andalusian girls]

I suppose that's true. I usually am cautiously optimistic with people and their dependability. I don't instantly assume they're shitbags but also don't assume they're perfect angels that do nothing wrong.

a whole lot of these rape cases start with, this guy from school offered me a joint to smoke then offered to take me home alone, this guy from The Cosby Show took me back to his studio and offered me a handful of pills. sure only a 10% chance you're dealing with a shitbag (and it's probably more like 5-6% of men are rapists) but my God damn spider sense is going to be firing on all cylinders, 'ey yo 6% chance of getting raped is still way too much pass on them pills'. that cautiousness should be all that's intended by such messages, the hyperbole of the poster is idiotic and self-defeating

I think you guys are still confused about what potential means

potentially 100% of all human beings are rapists, the statement is meaningless in that sense.

[Andalusian girls]

even worse potentially 100% of human beings are Phish fans

[hey]

potentially 100% of all human beings are rapists, the statement is meaningless in that sense.

The message is "be careful". Those words are used because it gets attention.

[hey]

"I'm progressive! Let me prove it by using the same argument people on Fox News use to justify profiling Muslims."

This isn't your average doublethink. This is advanced doublethink.

Instead you should trust everyone no matter what. That doesn't seem like a bad idea at all.

[Andalusian girls]

the wrong kind of attention

[Priran]

The message is "be careful". Those words are used because it gets attention.

I think we were having some confusion earlier about what constitutes a motte-and-bailey argument (or maybe it was in the #GG thread, idr) so here you go, prime example.

[hey]

the wrong kind of attention

You can argue that, but acting like feminists all think all men are rapists is just a bit silly.

[Priran]

You can argue that, but acting like feminists all think all men are rapists is just a bit silly.

Don't pull that strawmanning shit, you've been harping on the "potential" qualifier for like 10 pages.

[hey]

Don't pull that strawmanning shit, you've been harping on the "potential" qualifier for like 10 pages.

Because no one seems to get it. It's kind of important, but people keep dropping the word entirely.

[Priran]

Because no one seems to get it. It's kind of important, but people keep dropping the word entirely.

Yeah, in this case you. Not the person you were replying to.

[Mazmaz]

So, to be clear, I haven't weighed in on the all men are rapists thing too heavily because I actually believe it's always on the man to make both parties comfortable (but only in interactions.. I reserve the right to ignore a girl if I think she's ugly/boring/crazy) and I have many NOT moderate/considerate views on how sex/relationships should be handled by men and women.. so if I wanted you to behave moderately/considerately that'd make me a hypocrite who doesn't believe his view is able to transcend race/gender/culture/etc and be useful to everyone

So.. I don't think I want feminism to be moderate and considerate... you're drawing black and whites here, and there's much more to it. For one, I think my position is different than most of the guys here, and if you're lumping me in with them, I don't think you really get what I'm saying?

Here's what I DON'T want you to "be" as a feminist. A person who's unhappy in their own skin. A person who tells themselves the story that the world is harsh, unfair, and unjust so that you're absolved of responsibility. A person who better relates to hate, complaining, and whining than they relate to coming together, fun, and love. You have a unique perspective on life and instead of educating, you're trying to get the majority, privileged, people to understand by being edgy with hate talk? I think that's retarded, and that's pretty much the crux of what I have to say about how "feminism" behaves

What feminism (your version, anyway) wants, and my opinion on it, is another story. Like, just above I said that men should (and are) responsible for both parties being comfortable. I think that's good. I don't think men and women can be absolute equals in ANYTHING EXCEPT the eyes of the law, public education, and the workplace (but that's law, kinda). Sex and relationships, on the other hand, can't work if men/women behaved the same way, imo. So I have concerns when you or hey want to impose rules for social settings when I can't reasonably believe you two really get it. You know what I mean? I hope I'm not losing anyone here, but I don't think you realize the different worlds of social bubbles out there and I can't help but identify your view as one I had in highschool where I wasn't the cool kid and just wanted, subconsciously, everyone to be as miserable as I was so I had these strange ideals of how the world SHOULD work.

Rather than understanding how the world actually works and using that to leverage my own success

I want everyone to be successful and fulfilled in love/sex. The things you + hey (and others here + in other threads) say is SO anti-sex and wouldn't get far in the world of "winning friends and influencing people" that it's no wonder the subforum needs moderation for all the pent up rage that explodes in people's posts lol

I realize that's long but fuck it. Going to sit by my computer F5ing till sunday, eagerly awaiting your reply. hey can hold me over 'till then, though w(*^_^)

If you're looking for discussion and debate in good faith, then I'm all for it, and I apologize if I confused yours with all the bad-faith debate that the others try to pawn off. You just have to be aware that I would probably challenge many underlying assumptions made in cishetnormative society in order to make my cases, so it would be good to make sure we're talking about the same things.

With regards to perception of being angry/unhappy, I think you're exaggerating. Calling-out (or sometimes calling-in if we like you enough) of problematic things observed in society is an effective tactic and a tool for change. It might come off as "angry and unhappy", but it gets the job done when it needs to and I don't believe it goes too far. That's why I didn't see shirtgate as more than just calling out someone for a mistake, where as you saw it as bullying.

As for approaching women/sex stuff, as long as you're following this, I don't really care: http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/01/...eepy-flirting/

PS. Throw on an avatar so I don't mistake you for "random X name misogynist #256".

[Penthesilea]

The message is "be careful". Those words are used because it gets attention.

So question, if the message "be careful" and "learn to protect yourself" comes from a guy isn't that essentially victim blaming?

[NynJa]

What part of "be careful" and "protect yourself" is associated with "men are all assholes an if theyre walking on the street at 2am behind a girl, they should announce theyre not a rapist otherwise theyre harassing the girl"?