Feminism Thread

[Thunder]

Well, it's true.

lol no.

Ha! Maz agrees with me, I read his little website thingy - do you disagree with the things in that link he has? (quoted below)

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make it better.

I agree! But whatever message you give it's way stronger to the laymen, privileged, average joe if you've "made it" despite you adversity. I know that isn't fair, but we know the world isn't fair. Your message would be way stronger if it didn't come from "there's no hope for me" hey and came from "I fucking made it anyway" hey.

That's ridiculous.

You're right, I was exaggerating, they're too good looking to feel bad for

I really doubt that. If she hadn't, that's not typical for anyone, no matter how good they look.

No way! Here's why I don't think you get it.. there are girls out there, doesn't even have to be a 10/10 stunner, who have not had even a tenth of the negative feedback I, as a guy, get.

Yeah, i don't think so. Girls do the same things, just in different ways.

Nah, girls get sheltered HARD. And they get lied to by other girls/guys daily. Hell, even ugly girls get it - just look at a gross FB picture of a girl showing off her new dress and there are mountains of "you look so good!". If a guy friend of mine would do it he'd either get 0 responses (negative feedback - we all feel bad when nobody notices our social media lol) or he gets jokes thrown at him. That's a benefit, imo - he knows he looks like shit and needs to improve it. Pretty girls get it the worst though, plz take my word on it. Idk how I can prove it without anecdotal stories and I just feel like an ass trying to show off typing these up so I end up deleting them lol

I think just accepting that "this is how the world works" is the most harmful thing anyone could do. By accepting major problems, you are saying that they are okay, and aren't a priority to fix. But they are.

I don't want people to accept it, and then just SIT THERE. That's no better than picking fights with people and telling them they're dicks if they don't do it your way. I want people to accept it, overcome it in whatever capacity, and THEN change it. That's a positive position to come from. If you come from the negative outlook on things, you'll get met with the same negativity

If you're looking for discussion and debate in good faith, then I'm all for it, and I apologize if I confused yours with all the bad-faith debate that the others try to pawn off. You just have to be aware that I would probably challenge many underlying assumptions made in cishetnormative society in order to make my cases, so it would be good to make sure we're talking about the same things.

With regards to perception of being angry/unhappy, I think you're exaggerating. Calling-out (or sometimes calling-in if we like you enough) of problematic things observed in society is an effective tactic and a tool for change. It might come off as "angry and unhappy", but it gets the job done when it needs to and I don't believe it goes too far. That's why I didn't see shirtgate as more than just calling out someone for a mistake, where as you saw it as bullying.

As for approaching women/sex stuff, as long as you're following this, I don't really care: http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/01/...eepy-flirting/

PS. Throw on an avatar so I don't mistake you for "random X name misogynist #256".

I'm too busy of a guy to be able to, or even want to, do this for kicks. I genuinely think debating with you and hey (since your opinions are so polar everyone elses and you two stand pretty firmly) is a good spending of my free time every now and then. This is purely selfish, though. I might say I want it, but I don't actually give a shit if people learn something from me. I wanna learn. Honestly, just writing some of these posts up helps me understand what I really think about some of the topics here

Anyway, totally abide by the link. It's solid advice - it's funny because some of the "pick up" stuff out there (the guys I've been exposed to, anyway) will literally give that exact advice and package it as, "this is how to talk to women!" instead of "this is how not to be a creeper". Obviously a bit more in-depth on the pickup side though. But the jist of "don't assume anything" "take cues to back off" etc is pretty strong in both. And I realize there's a LOT of bad pickup out there, the stigma doesn't come from nowhere, lol. So, I think we're on the same page here

The angry/happy stuff though. I'm just not sold on it yet. I get that calling out/in is an effective strategy, BUT we're dealing with social perceptions and a fair amount of what you should want to do is also market yourself well to reach max# of people, right? I'm arguing that even if what you have to say is correct, it will be perceived by the greater public as negative if you do not take time to "pitch" it correctly. That's why I thought it was bullying, and you thought it was adequate - we're different "customer" bases, I'm the cold market, you're the hot market. I want feminists to work hard and creatively to get some cold traffic going instead of only reaching the other feminists. I sometimes feel like feminists are having a shouting conversation between themselves and everyone else is bothered by the noise.

[thetruepandagod]

What part of "be careful" and "protect yourself" is associated with "men are all assholes an if theyre walking on the street at 2am behind a girl, they should announce theyre not a rapist otherwise theyre harassing the girl"?

But what if rapists start shouting out they aren't rapists to make it easier to rape willy nilly at 2am.

Your message would be way stronger if it didn't come from "there's no hope for me" hey and came from "I fucking made it anyway" hey.

If hey charles barkleys up she will have become an inadvertent defender and ally to the patriarchy by succeeding in this misogynistic society thus invalidating her opinion.

[Thunder]

Actually hey, can we fuck off with the conversation we're having for now? I reread what I said and I don't think I'm doing a good job explaining what exactly I want to explain. It's hard, the positive/negative, overcome adversity, success, etc etc shit in my head comes from like a dozen different people and their books/interviews/talks and I'm doing a shit job trying to condense it down to small forum posts

I'll bring it up later when I feel like I can do a better job, no worries. Can you pretend like I responded to you with those bottom 2 paragraphs@maz instead?

[NynJa]

Hell, even ugly girls get it - just look at a gross FB picture of a girl showing off her new dress and there are mountains of "you look so good!". If a guy friend of mine would do it he'd either get 0 responses (negative feedback - we all feel bad when nobody notices our social media lol) or he gets jokes thrown at him.

ITS FUNNY BECAUSE ITS TRUE.

[NynJa]

But what if rapists start shouting out they aren't rapists to make it easier to rape willy nilly at 2am.

Thats what never made sense and was fucking stupid as shit.

"I'm totally not going to drag you into this alleyway and tear your ass up, you can trust me"

[thetruepandagod]

Wow i am so fucking mad right now I just typed up my first serious post in over 2 years and i get "I'm not sure what you're trying to do but we do not encourage piracy here. If you think this is an error please contact one of the site admin." message and accidently delete my post.

[thetruepandagod]

THIS IS WHY I DONT FUCKING TRY ANYMORE ANDALUSIAN FUCK

[NynJa]

Wow i am so fucking mad right now I just typed up my first serious post in over 2 years and i get "I'm not sure what you're trying to do but we do not encourage piracy here. If you think this is an error please contact one of the site admin." message and accidently delete my post.

Someone should contact Ragns or Sono (not me) and ask if theres a way to not delete the post if it flags something. Any time I google and image to use, 90% of the time its "a shady site", and my post gets wiped.

[thetruepandagod]

I didn't use any links, images or anything just a quick paragraph explaining my genuine stance on things and i get that. It is truly a sign i'm meant to be disingenuous until i snag a perma.

w/e one persons opinion is irrelevant anyway

[Priran]

Relax and enjoy some schadenfreude.

Probably the only time I will ever link to Tumblr.

[Andalusian girls]

w/e one persons opinion is irrelevant anyway

the individual is all that matters

[Andalusian girls]

too bad pirates don't matter

[Mazmaz]

Nah, girls get sheltered HARD. And they get lied to by other girls/guys daily. Hell, even ugly girls get it - just look at a gross FB picture of a girl showing off her new dress and there are mountains of "you look so good!". If a guy friend of mine would do it he'd either get 0 responses (negative feedback - we all feel bad when nobody notices our social media lol) or he gets jokes thrown at him. That's a benefit, imo - he knows he looks like shit and needs to improve it. Pretty girls get it the worst though, plz take my word on it. Idk how I can prove it without anecdotal stories and I just feel like an ass trying to show off typing these up so I end up deleting them lol

They get "lied to" about their "gross FB picture" because the other girls/some guys realize how every aspect of media in society is dedicated to attacking women's self-esteem, self-image, and personal worth. It's the little bit of sanity that women can provide each other so they don't get suffocated with all the obnoxious messages they are fed daily. You would not notice those messages because as a man, you're not targeted by them nearly as much.

PS. I consider "pitching ideas to the cold market" the same thing as "moderating the message". I don't think women and others are responsible for making the "cold market" comfortable when demanding justice and equality.

[Thunder]

They get "lied to" about their "gross FB picture" because the other girls/some guys realize how every aspect of media in society is dedicated to attacking women's self-esteem, self-image, and personal worth. It's the little bit of sanity that women can provide each other so they don't get suffocated with all the obnoxious messages they are fed daily. You would not notice those messages because as a man, you're not targeted by them nearly as much.

I wont touch this anymore

PS. I consider "pitching ideas to the cold market" the same thing as "moderating the message". I don't think women and others are responsible for making the "cold market" comfortable when demanding justice and equality.

Are you misunderstanding what I mean by increasing marketability? You don't have to moderate your message. I know from talking with women in regards to sex/relationships or even in business (not personally, but from others in books/interviews/talks) that you can win or lose and have the exact same information in both messages.

The difference between winning someone's vote, investment, affection, love, friendship, etc is rarely the about the "information" - it's how it's presented. "Doesn't matter what you say, it's how you say it - doesn't matter what you wear, it's how you wear it - doesn't matter what you do, it's how you do it". I understand you don't think it's fair to be held responsible for putting in effort to make your message easier to receive by others when the content is about justice/equality. But the world just doesn't give a shit about working fairly. You don't think it'd be better to change the style of the delivery to increase the # of people getting the message in a positive/understanding way? Without sacrificing the information/topic/whatever of the message

Or it about "DEMANDING" justice/equality and doing it in an angry/unhappy way to provoke people?

[hey]

So question, if the message "be careful" and "learn to protect yourself" comes from a guy isn't that essentially victim blaming?

Not unless you blame someone who didn't bother to be careful or protect their self and got hurt, on that lack of care. If something happens, it's not their fault, regardless of how much effort they put into trying to avoid it. But there are countless ways you can increase your safety, such as locking your door, not wearing headphones when you go out at 2 am, not walking around with bags overflowing with $100 bills, etc, that people should generally try to do when possible. But if they fail to, and someone attacks them, it's not their fault, it's the fault of the attacker, always.

What part of "be careful" and "protect yourself" is associated with "men are all assholes an if theyre walking on the street at 2am behind a girl, they should announce theyre not a rapist otherwise theyre harassing the girl"?

That is an example of a situation in which you should be careful.

Ha! Maz agrees with me, I read his little website thingy - do you disagree with the things in that link he has? (quoted below)

No, it looks more or less right to me.

I agree! But whatever message you give it's way stronger to the laymen, privileged, average joe if you've "made it" despite you adversity. I know that isn't fair, but we know the world isn't fair. Your message would be way stronger if it didn't come from "there's no hope for me" hey and came from "I fucking made it anyway" hey.

So...people think less of the non-privileged? Yeah, i know.

You're right, I was exaggerating, they're too good looking to feel bad for

...

No way! Here's why I don't think you get it.. there are girls out there, doesn't even have to be a 10/10 stunner, who have not had even a tenth of the negative feedback I, as a guy, get.

Yes, and there are girls who have received 10 times more than you. Also guys who have received 10 times more/less. I don't think the difference is nearly as big as you're implying.

Nah, girls get sheltered HARD. And they get lied to by other girls/guys daily. Hell, even ugly girls get it - just look at a gross FB picture of a girl showing off her new dress and there are mountains of "you look so good!". If a guy friend of mine would do it he'd either get 0 responses (negative feedback - we all feel bad when nobody notices our social media lol) or he gets jokes thrown at him. That's a benefit, imo - he knows he looks like shit and needs to improve it. Pretty girls get it the worst though, plz take my word on it. Idk how I can prove it without anecdotal stories and I just feel like an ass trying to show off typing these up so I end up deleting them lol

Right, there's some truth to this. Girls are definitely less likely to be publicly criticized for their appearance. But it's a different story in private, and also for things other than appearance.

I don't want people to accept it, and then just SIT THERE. That's no better than picking fights with people and telling them they're dicks if they don't do it your way. I want people to accept it, overcome it in whatever capacity, and THEN change it. That's a positive position to come from. If you come from the negative outlook on things, you'll get met with the same negativity

This is really really really really dumb. Telling people to just accept that others are going to hurt them because they don't like that they aren't exactly the same person is totally insane. What does it even mean to overcome it? The only thing i would consider overcoming that is putting a stop to it.

Actually hey, can we fuck off with the conversation we're having for now? I reread what I said and I don't think I'm doing a good job explaining what exactly I want to explain. It's hard, the positive/negative, overcome adversity, success, etc etc shit in my head comes from like a dozen different people and their books/interviews/talks and I'm doing a shit job trying to condense it down to small forum posts

I'll bring it up later when I feel like I can do a better job, no worries. Can you pretend like I responded to you with those bottom 2 paragraphs@maz instead?

Welp, already wrote my responses. If you want to discuss it more once you've had more time to think it over, by all means.

Wow i am so fucking mad right now I just typed up my first serious post in over 2 years and i get "I'm not sure what you're trying to do but we do not encourage piracy here. If you think this is an error please contact one of the site admin." message and accidently delete my post.

http://getlazarus.com/

[notorious bum]

4chan is now planning what to do to the UVA rape victim now that @chuckcjohnson has released her name.

Chuck is a vile piece of shit, just another notch in his belt.

[Thunder]

Welp, already wrote my responses. If you want to discuss it more once you've had more time to think it over, by all means.

Yeah, I'll have to come back to it later. I appreciate the response you gave, though

This is really really really really dumb. Telling people to just accept that others are going to hurt them because they don't like that they aren't exactly the same person is totally insane. What does it even mean to overcome it? The only thing i would consider overcoming that is putting a stop to it.

It's like I know and can explain it in my world.. but then transcending that idea into privilege, the unprivileged, and the rest of that kind of language is really difficult for me. I really wanna get this down. I think what I've got in my head is a universal truth and it doesn't work if I can't convince you

Gimmie some time, I'll go over what I know and still keep reading the thread/other things to get better acclimated to feminism idealogy and maybe next time I'll be able to marry the two

[Charismatic]

4chan is now planning what to do to the UVA rape victim now that @chuckcjohnson has released her name.

Chuck is a vile piece of shit, just another notch in his belt.

The victim that got raped at a party that didn't even happen or are we talking about something else?

[wipers]

The victim that got raped at a party that didn't even happen or are we talking about something else?

You mean Rolling Stone magazine isn't the premier leader in investigation journalism ? I'm shocked !

[NynJa]

4chan is now planning what to do to the UVA rape victim now that @chuckcjohnson has released her name.

Chuck is a vile piece of shit, just another notch in his belt.

Ya what an asshole, not protecting this poor girl who ruined the lives of 7 people with her lies.

Oh wait, it was 7 men, fuck those misogynists.