Feminism Thread

[Priran]

Did I attribute that to feminists? You'd have a point if I attributed that to feminists like maz says is my tactic de rigueur but I'm pretty sure I'm attributing it, accurately I might add, to internet randos.

[Lyall]

I don't know why this is so hard to understand, but gaming isn't a house to get in order. It's not one organized, united, group. It's made up of countless independent people with different ideas. There is no one single thing that all gamers share in common. They are all different people, with different beliefs and attitudes, coming from all different walks of life. As much as gamers and anti-gamers argue, gamers argue amongst themselves even more. You can't blame all of them for everything even one gamer ever does.

This should really go into the Gamergate thread, but I wanted to point out how hypocritical this mindset is when viewed through a different lense, especially given the "all Gamers are misogynists" thing that sparked a lot of Sarkeesian talk.

Edit to try and keep it on-topic: Your dialogue sounds a lot like handwaving away anything the fringe does, which causes issues when trying to discuss problems within an organization (or ideology, as feminism appears to be). "Oh, those voices don't represent us." That's all good and well, but without a sensible voice to speak up on this stuff, without centralization, it becomes a lot of voices all saying they represent the idea without anyone agreeing on who actually can or will.

It's a clusterfuck, in other words. As long as there IS no central source or organization for what Feminism As A Capital F means, everyone gets to claim they represent it, because there's no one to say they don't. This is true for basically any ideology without a base to rally around. If people started firebombing New York penthouses and claiming they were part of the Occupy movement, guess what? That's what you stand for now.

This is the sort of shit-flinging that (sorry to bring it up again) landed on Gamergate that everyone took them to task for. "The people flinging death threats and using the hashtag ARE Gamergate, fuck what you claim otherwise."

It can't be both ways.

[hey]

This should really go into the Gamergate thread, but I wanted to point out how hypocritical this mindset is when viewed through a different lense, especially given the "all Gamers are misogynists" thing that sparked a lot of Sarkeesian talk.

Have i ever said all gamers are misogynists? I don't recall doing that.

[Lyall]

Have i ever said all gamers are misogynists? I don't recall doing that.

Sorry, didn't mean to infer that. I've edited the post to expand on that idea a little more and just meant, in general, there's nothing anyone can do when shitheads claim to speak for the masses.

[hey]

That's all good and well, but without a sensible voice to speak up on this stuff, without centralization, it becomes a lot of voices all saying they represent the idea without anyone agreeing on who actually can or will.

It's a clusterfuck, in other words. As long as there IS no central source or organization for what Feminism As A Capital F means, everyone gets to claim they represent it, because there's no one to say they don't. This is true for basically any ideology without a base to rally around. If people started firebombing New York penthouses and claiming they were part of the Occupy movement, guess what? That's what you stand for now.

Well, yeah. That's exactly what feminism is. Each individual person can say they don't support something on their own. Feminism is not an organization. It's just unrelated people who kind of sort of share the same basic ideals. Some are good, some are not. Certainly there are advantages to organization, but a clusterfuck has it's advantages too. This way anyone can support their own personal brand of feminism and cherry pick what they want to fight for, rather than doing nothing because they don't support the official Feminism. I can't say which would be better, but this is what we have.

[wipers]

Haven't we all already agreed that a lot of feminists are mean and terrible people? Do we really need to keep discussing them?

279 pages says yes.

Feminism is not an organization... hmm May not be an organization but lots of people supporting the cause.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...#United_States

[Lyall]

Well, yeah. That's exactly what feminism is. Each individual person can say they don't support something on their own. Feminism is not an organization. It's just unrelated people who kind of sort of share the same basic ideals. Some are good, some are not. Certainly there are advantages to organization, but a clusterfuck has it's advantages too. This way anyone can support their own personal brand of feminism and cherry pick what they want to fight for, rather than doing nothing because they don't support the official Feminism. I can't say which would be better, but this is what we have.

Critics are going to condemn that, though. Everyone bringing their own personal brand of it to the fore means that they are basically untouchable on account of any one particular unfavorable opinion being tossed away as "not being what feminism is about." They effectively get to say that anyone criticizing them is not criticizing correctly. I'm sure there are benefits, but I'm not sure that, in a conversation, they outweigh the perceived negatives.

It comes off as awful shady when an ideology can just say "Yeah, that's not us" when someone does something bad. It's the motte-bailey thing again. "We believe in equality. Oh, those shrews who got that guy fired and tagged all over his house? Yeah, that's not us. We represent equality. Oh, the people who believe everything is a gender battle? Nope, you've got the wrong folks. They don't live here either."

It's not exactly a silencing tactic, but when every criticism can be met with "Nope, doesn't count" it's not exactly healthy discourse any longer, it's arguing with children.

[hey]

279 pages says yes.

Feminism is not an organization... hmm

Are you ever going to contribute more to this thread than just reminding us how many pages there are on whatever inferior ppp setting you use? If not, can you just leave us to actually discuss things? Thanks.

Critics are going to condemn that, though. Everyone bringing their own personal brand of it to the fore means that they are basically untouchable on account of any one particular unfavorable opinion being tossed away as "not being what feminism is about." They effectively get to say that anyone criticizing them is not criticizing correctly. I'm sure there are benefits, but I'm not sure that, in a conversation, they outweigh the perceived negatives.

It comes off as awful shady when an ideology can just say "Yeah, that's not us" when someone does something bad. It's the motte-bailey thing again. "We believe in equality. Oh, those shrews who got that guy fired and tagged all over his house? Yeah, that's not us. We represent equality. Oh, the people who believe everything is a gender battle? Nope, you've got the wrong folks. They don't live here either."

It's not exactly a silencing tactic, but when every criticism can be met with "Nope, doesn't count" it's not exactly healthy discourse any longer, it's arguing with children.

Okay but...it's true. You can't blame every american because one or two do something you think is wrong. You don't blame every gay person because one does something wrong. You don't blame every politician because one supports a law you don't like. So why do it with feminism? You can't hold someone accountable for the words of someone they've never even spoke to once in their life.

[wipers]

If by contributing you mean arguing about what is or isn't feminism ? Um I think I have a dictionary for that.

[hey]

Okay, then why are you here? Seems like you've got it all figured out, so you don't need to be here to learn more.

[BaneTheBrawler]

I would think that's obvious, Hey. He (or she?) is here because at one point in time they played FFXI or FFXIV. Duh.


Stop being a dick.

[Lyall]

Okay but...it's true. You can't blame every american because one or two do something you think is wrong. You don't blame every gay person because one does something wrong. You don't blame every politician because one supports a law you don't like. So why do it with feminism? You can't hold someone accountable for the words of someone they've never even spoke to once in their life.

I'm not so sure about that. You can subscribe to feminism's message (or whatever someone perceives it to be, because that's hard to nail down!) without declaring yourself a feminist. Not exactly the same for nationality or sexual practices. Politics are probably closer to the correct stance here, but "Thanks, Obama" wouldn't be a fucking joke phrase if that wasn't true. There are always going to be cultural stereotypes that get planted because of the actions of the people that speak the loudest, this is why all gays are flaming, all republicans are rich white dudes, all democrats are liberal hippies and all Americans are overweight cheeseburger loving gun nuts.

Accountability is hard. If someone from the democratic party is suddenly outed as believing Hitler was right, you can probably bet your ass someone's apologizing and saying that mentality doesn't fit the standards for the party. It's not unheard of for someone to lose their position in a job for this sort of thing. But an ideology doesn't employ you, so there's nothing to lose. Feminism is synonymous in cultural identity to the man-hating lesbian thing, or whatever stereotype is attributed to it, because of the man-hating lesbian folks who hate men. Unfortunate? Maybe. But you know, not all gamers are white neckbearded aspies and not all feminists are bulldykes.

Again, I know this isn't the Gamergate thread, but there's already plenty of people being held accountable for what other people they've never spoken to have said. It happens all the time. What usually happens when someone goes off the deep end is them being written off: Gun nut comments online that Obama's a racial slur and he's going to knee-cap him with his NRA-republican approved rifle and then grind the tires of his dualy on the muslim's head. What should happen: People say that guy's fucked up, democrats decry republicans. What should also happen: Republicans either ignore the point because they guy's fucked up, or they agree he's fucked up and move on.

It might be my limited worldview, but feminists and the people claiming the title are more inclined to explain to you why you're wrong for associating the nutjob with them rather than just going "Yeah, that's fucked" and moving on to the actual issues.

Everyone's going to get people who stick bullshit to them, or try to. Feminists can't seem to help themselves from fighting everyone who does so, when mostly everyone else just goes "yeah, fuck you" and continues to abide.

Edit to bring one specific sentence to the front:

You can't blame every american because one or two do something you think is wrong.

You might wanna step into the GG thread sometime and see how feminists think that's exactly fine to do.

[wipers]

Allow me to explain a bit of feminism: It like anything has a very strong vocal minority that makes it almost impossible to take serious when discussing actual women's issues. So when you are arguing over virtual rape and gamer gate subjects. People in other countries are actually having it tough and would love the luxury of "modern day feminism"

[Charismatic]

Once upon a time, in a not so distant past... this thread was fun to post in.
I don't have much to say about the current topic other than that there's a pretty good reason why many second wave feminists just kinda throw their hands up and give up on trying to talk to these new third wave crazies.

The way much of this gender feminism (rather than equity feminism which I agree with large parts of, though not all, of course) is practiced/preached seems to go against human nature and biology so I think it takes a certain kind of person to go along with it in the first place. I don't really feel like discussing this so I'm not going to be overly specific about what I mean here ('cause I'm not looking to start something with Mazmaz or hey).

[hey]

I'm not so sure about that. You can subscribe to feminism's message (or whatever someone perceives it to be, because that's hard to nail down!) without declaring yourself a feminist. Not exactly the same for nationality or sexual practices. Politics are probably closer to the correct stance here, but "Thanks, Obama" wouldn't be a fucking joke phrase if that wasn't true. There are always going to be cultural stereotypes that get planted because of the actions of the people that speak the loudest, this is why all gays are flaming, all republicans are rich white dudes, all democrats are liberal hippies and all Americans are overweight cheeseburger loving gun nuts.

Accountability is hard. If someone from the democratic party is suddenly outed as believing Hitler was right, you can probably bet your ass someone's apologizing and saying that mentality doesn't fit the standards for the party. It's not unheard of for someone to lose their position in a job for this sort of thing. But an ideology doesn't employ you, so there's nothing to lose. Feminism is synonymous in cultural identity to the man-hating lesbian thing, or whatever stereotype is attributed to it, because of the man-hating lesbian folks who hate men. Unfortunate? Maybe. But you know, not all gamers are white neckbearded aspies and not all feminists are bulldykes.

Yes, i do know that, which is why i don't do that, and call people out when they do it. Just because it's common doesn't mean it's okay.

It might be my limited worldview, but feminists and the people claiming the title are more inclined to explain to you why you're wrong for associating the nutjob with them rather than just going "Yeah, that's fucked" and moving on to the actual issues.

That hasn't really been my experience. Feminists are usually more than happy to talk about how certain other feminists are wrong. Easy example is TERFs, who are widely criticized by most other feminists.

You might wanna step into the GG thread sometime and see how feminists think that's exactly fine to do.

Okay, so get mad at them for that. I don't do that, and neither should they, or you.

[Lyall]

Yes, i do know that, which is why i don't do that, and call people out when they do it. Just because it's common doesn't mean it's okay.

That hasn't really been my experience. Feminists are usually more than happy to talk about how certain other feminists are wrong. Easy example is TERFs, who are widely criticized by most other feminists.

Okay, so get mad at them for that. I don't do that, and neither should they, or you.

1) It's common everywhere except, seemingly, feminism. Criticism is either wrong or misogyny. A man lost his gig as a newspaper writer because he dared criticize someone in a fashion that somehow made them feel "threatened."

B) That has been the experience in this very thread, where someone linked to comments and you said "You can't judge us all by the actions of a few anonymous commenters on gawker of all places. " You dismissed the opinions of others and said they don't count. The exact thing you're disputing that you don't do.

III) I wish more people would take that stance. The OP of the GG thread is a clickbait article that uses the exact same language as you are right now. There, it's criticism and designed to mock. Here, you seem to be earnestly believing we should disavow those destructive comments because they shouldn't count.

My issue isn't with you personally, and never has been. Despite the run-around that happens here, and despite my position on the Other Side (I guess, I don't really see it that way but enh) I do enjoy trying to understand all parts of this stuff. I just don't get the double standards in rules regarding feminism: Things should either be okay or not okay, and the subject/target/receipient shouldn't matter.

[hey]

The way much of this gender feminism (rather than equity feminism which I agree with large parts of, though not all, of course) is practiced/preached seems to go against human nature and biology so I think it takes a certain kind of person to go along with it in the first place. I don't really feel like discussing this so I'm not going to be overly specific about what I mean here ('cause I'm not looking to start something with Mazmaz or hey).

You were pretty specific already. Unfortunately, you're totally wrong. First of all, you can't have gender equality if you only include 2 genders, or if you exclude people who don't identify with their assigned gender. Second, it doesn't go against biology at all. Differences in brain scans based on gender identity, rather than chromosomes are well documented. You can also read http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/21...he-categories/ for a rather amazing explanation for why it would still not go against biology even if there was no biological difference.

[Lyall]

You were pretty specific already. Unfortunately, you're totally wrong. First of all, you can't have gender equality if you only include 2 genders, or if you exclude people who don't identify with their assigned gender. Second, it doesn't go against biology at all. Differences in brain scans based on gender identity, rather than chromosomes are well documented. You can also read http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/21...he-categories/ for a rather amazing explanation for why it would still not go against biology even if there was no biological difference.

I admittedly lost interest when the author claimed science is wrong because people use a different word for whale. Most people just call that "ignorance."

[hey]

1) It's common everywhere except, seemingly, feminism. Criticism is either wrong or misogyny. A man lost his gig as a newspaper writer because he dared criticize someone in a fashion that somehow made them feel "threatened."

B) That has been the experience in this very thread, where someone linked to comments and you said "You can't judge us all by the actions of a few anonymous commenters on gawker of all places. " You dismissed the opinions of others and said they don't count. The exact thing you're disputing that you don't do.

III) I wish more people would take that stance. The OP of the GG thread is a clickbait article that uses the exact same language as you are right now. There, it's criticism and designed to mock. Here, you seem to be earnestly believing we should disavow those destructive comments because they shouldn't count.

My issue isn't with you personally, and never has been. Despite the run-around that happens here, and despite my position on the Other Side (I guess, I don't really see it that way but enh) I do enjoy trying to understand all parts of this stuff. I just don't get the double standards in rules regarding feminism: Things should either be okay or not okay, and the subject/target/receipient shouldn't matter.

1) It's common in feminism too. Being common does not make something acceptable. Also, it had nothing to do with the way he criticized it, but that he did. You can say that's no better, but lets stop holding onto the "it's satire" nonsense.

B) I didn't say they don't count, i'm saying they aren't representative of all feminists. Also you've find a number of instances of me saying lots of feminists are shitty people. Here, i'll do it again: Lots of feminists are shitty people. Being a feminist doesn't automatically make someone a good person.

III) No, they do count. There are really people who said those things, and likely believe it. Those are indeed the opinion of some feminists. But you cannot generalize that to all feminists. Because it is a simply a lie to say all feminists are like that.

My issue isn't with you personally, and never has been. Despite the run-around that happens here, and despite my position on the Other Side (I guess, I don't really see it that way but enh) I do enjoy trying to understand all parts of this stuff. I just don't get the double standards in rules regarding feminism: Things should either be okay or not okay, and the subject/target/receipient shouldn't matter.

I agree. I think most feminists will agree on that, actually. But, the thing is, feminists are all different kinds of people, and will often disagree on what is okay and what is not. Personally, i think it is wrong to generalize a small part of group x to the entirety of it, no matter what the group is. It's wrong to say all of gamergate is misogynists. It's also wrong to say all feminists hate men. Some are, and some do, but not all of them. The problem comes from you taking two conflicting ideas from different feminists, and attributing them to feminism as a whole. If you do that, you will find a double standard with literally everything. But that's because you've made a mistake in attributing different ideas from different, unrelated people, to the same thing. That simply doesn't work.

[hey]

I admittedly lost interest when the author claimed science is wrong because people use a different word for whale. Most people just call that "ignorance."

That isn't what it was saying at all. I'd highly recommend you keep reading, because it will make sense if you do. In no way is it saying science is wrong. In fact, it is saying that neither is wrong.