Feminism Thread

[archibaldcrane]

If it helps any, I'm as cis-white-straight-male-privileged as they come.

Do my posts come across as hating my "category"?

[Darus Grey]

I see nothing wrong with maintaining skepticism that sexism is the entirety of the reason for gaps in workplace representation.

It's just when people act like it isn't a factor that makes me question whether they live on the same planet as I do.

The issue from my perspective(someone who hires in the tech field), is that workplace gaps are a symptom and not a cause. Trust me when I say virtually every competent hiring manager, CIO, or recruiter in the tech field gives women not only a fair shot, but an imho outrageous advantage. If you are a competent woman in tech, it is significantly easier to get hired. We are actively encouraged to hire woman over men to meet diversity goals at most companies.

The problem is not sexism in the workplace, because the reality is woman never make it that far. Nynja actually is somewhat in the ballpark, at a previous company we hired about 70% of woman applicants and 5% of male applicants, and still only had 24%/76% ratio.

The issue goes much deeper, to the education system, and to culture. Women don't avoid tech in college, they avoid it in middle school, they're steered away from it LONG before anyone in the workplace or even college has a chance to do a damn thing about it.

I might go off the rails here a bit, and I'll pre-face this by saying that this is all supposition, so take that at face value, but I think religion's role in our culture has a big role in it.

When we look at countries like India and China, places not exactly known for having cultures of high egalitarian attitudes towards women(not anywhere near the middle east, but still very different than american/european attitudes), we see that this gap melts away. Women's representation in STEM in India and China is significantly higher than here, not 50/50, but 35-40/60 and better/worse depending on industry/area. Significantly better than 25/75.

Then we look at countries like Norway, which have very aggressive policies for the last 30~yrs(more than a generation), and have only achieved 30/70. They see a pattern (The paradox of female empowerment), that when given a high degree of freedom and choice, women in Norway(and America) choose not to go into STEM.

The major difference I always noted is that we in western culture have a dominant religion that is strongly science-phobic, and that we also have the strong trend that women(for whatever reason) are more religious than men. Religion tends to be the "woman's domain" in our culture even today, and since said religion is science-phobic, and actively preaches against science, I think there's a possibility that women from an early age are biased against STEM fields.

If you look at the opposing trend, people in high-tech are statistically likely to be agnostic or atheist way above the population norms(uselessly anecdotal, but I've seriously
never met a devout christian in 15 years in this industry, they're either secretive(possibly fear of ridicule?), or just not present, or in the "my wife makes me go" category.

I have a feeling these trends are strongly related, and that this phenomenon may be mis-attributed to "sexism"(even if sexism may? be a contributor to this phenomenon itself).

Like I said, this is a lot of conjecture. That said, gimme grant monies, I've been wanting to conduct a study on this.

[Blubbartron]

If its a hate of the system you people sure have a funny way of Expressing/showing it. All i ever see is the hatred of the Patriarchy and cis white men and their "privilege of existing". Every time i read a post or topic of news article revolving someway around feminism, it always comes back to being the fault of white men and their oppression of them.

That's the information I'm being given anyway. Its probably due to the loudest voices of any group always being the most ignorant and illogical. Which is probably why most people hate it in general. Its hard to change your mind and become a feminist when even other feminist don't like being associated with the word "feminist" due to the loudest of the ignorance among them.

If the message is disliking the system that allows these things, I can see myself behind it, but I just don't see a solution being made toward that end, not yet... but, I do not reject it entirely.

You're falling into the motte-and-bailey trap. You're quite correct that they're placing blame on white men simply for being white men, but when you attempt to contradict that, they fall back to the easily defensible "it's not you as a person, it's the system."

On an unrelated note, I find it interesting that the picture he posted goes from less believable to more believable. I've seen no evidence of there being any kind of white supremacist system. I've seen evidence of cops abusing their power left and right, but none that it's specifically targeted at black people. Soldiers basically fall into two generalized groups - mercenaries (it's a well-paying job with very few entry requirements) and idealists (America... FUCK YEAH), which is exactly the idea of politically/economically vulnerable. And lastly Capitalism, which anyone with a brain can see is a system of increasing wealth inequality.

Edit: Serious question I should've asked above - can anyone adequately explain what systems, and how, are white supremacist in the U.S.?

[Teryu]

The issue from my perspective(someone who hires in the tech field), is that workplace gaps are a symptom and not a cause. Trust me when I say virtually every competent hiring manager, CIO, or recruiter in the tech field gives women not only a fair shot, but an imho outrageous advantage. If you are a competent woman in tech, it is significantly easier to get hired. We are actively encouraged to hire woman over men to meet diversity goals at most companies.

The problem is not sexism in the workplace, because the reality is woman never make it that far. Nynja actually is somewhat in the ballpark, at a previous company we hired about 70% of woman applicants and 5% of male applicants, and still only had 24%/76% ratio.

The issue goes much deeper, to the education system, and to culture. Women don't avoid tech in college, they avoid it in middle school, they're steered away from it LONG before anyone in the workplace or even college has a chance to do a damn thing about it.

I might go off the rails here a bit, and I'll pre-face this by saying that this is all supposition, so take that at face value, but I think religion's role in our culture has a big role in it.

When we look at countries like India and China, places not exactly known for having cultures of high egalitarian attitudes towards women(not anywhere near the middle east, but still very different than american/european attitudes), we see that this gap melts away. Women's representation in STEM in India and China is significantly higher than here, not 50/50, but 35-40/60 and better/worse depending on industry/area. Significantly better than 25/75.

Then we look at countries like Norway, which have very aggressive policies for the last 30~yrs(more than a generation), and have only achieved 30/70. They see a pattern (The paradox of female empowerment), that when given a high degree of freedom and choice, women in Norway(and America) choose not to go into STEM.

The major difference I always noted is that we in western culture have a dominant religion that is strongly science-phobic, and that we also have the strong trend that women(for whatever reason) are more religious than men. Religion tends to be the "woman's domain" in our culture even today, and since said religion is science-phobic, and actively preaches against science, I think there's a possibility that women from an early age are biased against STEM fields.

If you look at the opposing trend, people in high-tech are statistically likely to be agnostic or atheist way above the population norms(uselessly anecdotal, but I've seriously
never met a devout christian in 15 years in this industry, they're either secretive(possibly fear of ridicule?), or just not present, or in the "my wife makes me go" category.

I have a feeling these trends are strongly related, and that this phenomenon may be mis-attributed to "sexism"(even if sexism may? be a contributor to this phenomenon itself).

Like I said, this is a lot of conjecture. That said, gimme grant monies, I've been wanting to conduct a study on this.

Oh yeah I saw a documentary about this, shit was hilarious, that no matter what they did and how much money they spent they couldn't mind control women into changing their interests to STEM fields.

[Charismatic]

Oh yeah I saw a documentary about this, shit was hilarious, that no matter what they did and how much money they spent they couldn't mind control women into changing their interests to STEM fields.

Was it this one?

[Teryu]

Yeah it is.

[Charismatic]

I absolutely love the entire Brainwash documentary.
More people need to watch ALL of these.

[Koul]

Oh yeah I saw a documentary about this, shit was hilarious, that no matter what they did and how much money they spent they couldn't mind control women into changing their interests to STEM fields.

Which is exactly what I think will happen unless they target young girls. And even if they do target young girls, that might do shit. It'll be good lulz though in 2020 when they're scratching their heads wondering why things aren't the way they expected. "But we threw money at the problem! Why didn't it fix itself! something something cis white men something something!"

I'll check out that brainwash thing when I get home. seems interesting.

[archibaldcrane]

@darus religion argument - it kinda loses steam when you lump America and Norway together - the US is quite religious as far as Western nations go...while Norway is highly secular.

[thetruepandagod]

I don't understand the need to force women to like math and numbers just because 20 years after they get to kindergarten intel and google want them to fill their diversity quota. Is there any request for improved diversity among kindergarten teachers which is heavily female dominant? Is it because no one cares about gender in lower income jobs? Or is it just feminist placating run rampant?

[thetruepandagod]

I don't understand the need to force women to like math and numbers just because 20 years after they get to kindergarten intel and google want them to fill their diversity quota. Is there any request for improved diversity among kindergarten teachers which is heavily female dominant? Is it because no one cares about gender in lower income jobs? Or is it just feminist placating run rampant?

Also to cosign with archie I see 0 reason to believe that religion is interfering with gender gaps in tech fields. Look at countries like japan for example which are still following a corporate mindset of women being unable to have a say in anything while being one of the least religious countries on earth. And yes, most scandinavian countries are just not very religious in general.

http://www.salon.com/2012/08/29/eigh...be_an_atheist/

http://www.therichest.com/expensive-...igious-people/

Not the most accurate lists im sure but in all of these for the most part men are still dominant in tech fields so yea, you may have to tag along womens lack of interest in numbers/programming to something other than religion. Also anecdotal but since some people love anecdotal evidence here, my mother is hyper devout religious person and likes to do accounting for fun, loves math, and is learning to program "because it's fun" even though she has never made it past her msn homepage on her computer.

[Gredival]

I don't understand the need to force women to like math and numbers just because 20 years after they get to kindergarten intel and google want them to fill their diversity quota. Is there any request for improved diversity among kindergarten teachers which is heavily female dominant? Is it because no one cares about gender in lower income jobs? Or is it just feminist placating run rampant?

If other countries are showing 40/60 versus 25/75 it shows that there's something at play besides mere "women are just naturally not interested in these fields." That would explain the 40/60 disparity, not the 25/75.

For the US at least (can't speak about Norway) the religion explanation makes sense. If what we're fighting is the latent factors that are steering girls away from STEM fields (i.e. the latent idea that STEM jobs aren't "for girls"), I could see a high correlation between that and religion. It's like politics and religion; at a certain point, high devoutness becomes a very good predictor for conservative politics.

As for why it's an issue in the tech industry versus others? I think in part it's because the tech industry is trying to make sure that it can capture the female market, and it's indisputable that companies with better diversity are better at capturing all market segments.

Kindergarten teachers are a poor example because K-12 education is such a mess in our country and there are bigger problems than gender representation amongst specific grades of teachers. But if you look at the college level, there WAS an intense push for better representation amongst college professors. I don't think Women and Gender Studies, as a discipline, would be anywhere near where it is today were it not for that.

[Charismatic]

JFC watch the video people. Plenty of research is discussed on this very topic. Then go ahead and further research (there's a wealth of information/studies out there) before continuing this.
Come from a place of knowledge with your conjecture instead of throwing stuff out there.

[Blubbartron]

Can confirm, watched the entire documentary. It's really good.

It also makes a great deal of sense that we're biologically predisposed to like doing certain things (because evolution), but that then social factors can push us around some. I also really liked the explanation that having the freedom to do what you want means that we should naturally expect more clear cut lines of differences.

[Galkaeater]

The answers simple

Spoiler: show

Ban the humanities

[thetruepandagod]

I don't think Women and Gender Studies, as a discipline, would be anywhere near where it is today were it not for that.

I would prefer this.

Come from a place of knowledge with your conjecture instead of throwing stuff out there.

I have already watched your video a long time ago, but i also learned a long time ago there is no reason to go full elvis mode with giant intelligent well sourced posts colorcoded for idiots because no one cares enough to read it. BG conversations = conjecture in any thread that lasts more than 5 pages here.

[Darus Grey]

@darus religion argument - it kinda loses steam when you lump America and Norway together - the US is quite religious as far as Western nations go...while Norway is highly secular.

Norway being highly secular is a fairly recent trend. I'd make the argument that well each generation can make pretty big leaps, the influence doesn't fade quite that fast. And them being fairly secular might be why they're doing the best; which I think goes along with my argument more than opposes it. But mainly Norway is an example of a nation who literally has a spigot of money trying to solve this problem and can't(the paradox). The same trend continues across all western nations, France, Germany, UK, etc.
(Seriously, I'd love to either do or see these STEM charts as they relate to female religion attitudes, I think there would be a strong correlation, and if not, well, we can cross one more item off)

Let's presume for a moment that religion isn't the issue, then it still begs the question.

I assume it's not going to be a big leap to agree that most "eastern" cultures are a fair bit more sexist by western ideals.
So if these nations have cultural sexism, why are they out-performing us on diversity in STEM by a huge margin?

At the very least, it exposes that sexism is not the biggest factor at play, and what that is, is still an open question.

[Blubbartron]

Norway being highly secular is a fairly recent trend. I'd make the argument that well each generation can make pretty big leaps, the influence doesn't fade quite that fast. And them being fairly secular might be why they're doing the best, but mainly Norway is an example of a nation who literally has a spigot of money trying to solve this problem and can't(the paradox). The same trend continues across all western nations, France, Germany, UK, etc.

Let's presume for a moment that religion isn't the issue, then it still begs the question.

I assume it's not going to be a big leap to agree that most "eastern" cultures are a fair bit more sexist by western ideals.
So if these nations have cultural sexism, why are they out-performing us on diversity in STEM by a huge margin?

At the very least, it exposes that sexism is not the biggest factor at play, and what that is, is still an open question.

The video covers a highly plausible explanation for why "less egalitarian" nations have more women in STEM - it's because money. When women need a high paying job to support themselves or their family, and they are allowed to work in that nation, they will seek out the highest paying jobs. Survival takes priority over preferences.

[Darus Grey]

The video covers a highly plausible explanation for why "less egalitarian" nations have more women in STEM - it's because money. When women need a high paying job to support themselves or their family, and they are allowed to work in that nation, they will seek out the highest paying jobs. Survival takes priority over preferences.

I didn't bring that up, but I agree actually that that is one of the most likely motivators for the trend.

But that again leads to the question, women are more likely to choose better paying jobs for survival in nations where survival is more of an issue. So when women in more egalitarian nations DON'T choose those jobs, what factors are in play?

Why do they obviously prefer careers outside STEM?(again, the same trend we see in Norway, where a ton of money is funneled into this with no results). It's easy to label this as a problem and blame sexism.

But frankly all I see, is free women making choices, and hilariously we men being upset about those choices. That in my mind, is part of the sexism problem.

Edit:

I used to spend a lot of time and energy convincing women to pursue education and careers in STEM in my academic career, and honestly I just look back and see that as probably the more sexist things I've done in my life. If women don't want to pursue careers in STEM, trying to convince them earnestly otherwise is really just ignoring their own wishes and desires.

I shouldn't be cajoling people so *I* can feel good about some imaginary quota.

[Cantih]

Darus, another interesting data point for you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irania...s_in_education

As of 2006, women accounted for over half of university students in Iran and 70% of Iran's science and engineering students.