Feminism Thread

[GoggleHead]

Does Just Cause 2 count? I guess he looked kind of white but that accent was clearly not that of some white guy from some upper class suburbs.

[ronin sparthos]

You could... but I think the whole thing is pointless.
Not that it matters much, but I just want you to understand that this is coming from the perspective of a black man.

It doesn't even matter to me that there aren't many black protags... what difference would it make?

It isn't pointless as the effects of putting different races/females in the drivers seat go far beyond simple vidyas much the same way TV has influenced how people think over the decades. You're less likely to embrace the commonly accepted stereotypes when your favorite source of media has someone who bucks trends and since it isn't being fed to you like a Saturday afternoon special it's far more likely to get past your skepticism radar.

If video games are to become an accepted medium of expressing the human condition the same way TV, radio and literature have then we must accept that what gets put out influences those who consume it.

I'm just putting forth the idea that people of color aren't portrayed as protagonists en masse the same way females aren't typically given the spotlight. If this is purely a "we're doing this because games are catered to men" argument then why so few brown leads? Unless you're running through Dynasty Warriors/NBA Live/FIFA the likelihood of seeing more than two asians/blacks/hispanics on screen is pretty low.

[Charismatic]

Oh boy, are people really weak-minded enough to let things like this affect their perception of the real world?
Wouldn't that lend credence to the whole violent video games thing? I have my doubts on this one.

[GoggleHead]

Oh boy, are people really weak-minded enough to let things like this affect their perception of the real world?

Yes.

[ronin sparthos]

Oh boy, are people really weak-minded enough to let things like this affect their perception of the real world?
Wouldn't that lend credence to the whole violent video games thing? I have my doubts on this one.

Weak minded? Humans draw their conclusions about people from observation, experience and trusted sources. If you are a hardcore gamer, most of your time is spent in the world of vidyas and thus its inevitable for some of your virtual hobby to spill into the real world. Something doesn't have to be real to be thought of as true - just look at every religion on the planet.

Look at how beloved things like Star Wars and famous pieces of literature (sup Romeo and Juliet) are and this is what video games will one day be. Every portrayal and character created influences the people that play through it even if its subtle.

[Shade]

Oh boy, are people really weak-minded enough to let things like this affect their perception of the real world?
Wouldn't that lend credence to the whole violent video games thing? I have my doubts on this one.

They really are.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-y...ng-your-brain/

A story, for bonus points:

http://femmeforeverybody.tumblr.com/...n-the-original

Nichelle Nichols (Uhura on the original series):”Whoopi Goldberg, she’s just marvellous. I had no way of knowing that she was a Star Trek fan. When I finally met her it was her first year on the Next Generation.

She loved the show so much and she told her agent she wants a role on Star Trek. Well agents go ‘Big screen, little screen, no, you can’t do that’. Well you can’t tell Whoopi ‘You can’t do that’.

And so they finally asked, and they had the same reaction at Star Trek office, specifically Gene. And she said, ‘I want to meet him and I want him to tell me to my face. If he tells me he doesn’t want me and why, I’ll be fine.’

Knowing Gene he had to take that challenge, and so he met with her. She said, ‘I just wanted you to tell me why you don’t want me in Star Trek.’

Gene said, ‘Well, I’ll just ask you one question and I’ll make my decision on that. You’re a big screen star, why do you want to be on a little screen, why do you want to be in Star Trek?’

And she looked at him and she said, ‘Well, it’s all Nichelle Nichols’ fault.’

That threw him, he said, ‘What do you mean?’

She said, ‘Well when I was nine years old Star Trek came on,’ and she said, ‘I looked at it and I went screaming through the house, “Come here, mum, everybody, come quick, come quick, there’s a black lady on television and she ain’t no maid!”’ And she said, ‘I knew right then and there I could be anything I wanted to be, and I want to be on Star Trek.’

And he said, ‘I’ll write you a role.’

[ronin sparthos]

Go write a movie about a hero with a gun that glows in the presence of Arabs. See what happens.

lol.

[Charismatic]

Weak minded? Humans draw their conclusions about people from observation, experience and trusted sources. If you are a hardcore gamer, most of your time is spent in the world of vidyas and thus its inevitable for some of your virtual hobby to spill into the real world. Something doesn't have to be real to be thought of as true - just look at every religion on the planet.

Look at how beloved things like Star Wars and famous pieces of literature (sup Romeo and Juliet) are and this is what video games will one day be. Every portrayal and character created influences the people that play through it even if its subtle.

Weak minded, yes.
I play video games all day every day (probably far more hours than most people... even on a gaming forum such as this one)

I don't apply any of what I see in them to the real world because I realize that they have no relevance to the real world.

[ronin sparthos]

Weak minded, yes.
I play video games all day every day (probably far more hours than most people... even on a gaming forum such as this one)

I don't apply any of what I see in them to the real world because I realize that they have no relevance to the real world.

Unless you're Vulcan, you've most likely applied some aspect of a video game, movie, TV or other media to your life. It doesn't have to be swinging lightsabers with your friends in front of a camera, seriously discussing the validity of the prime directive or cosplaying at your local con either.

The ability to recognize a meme, pop culture reference or callback is applying fantasy to reality and since you're on BG so I think its fair to say you can do the aforementioned.

[Charismatic]

The ability to recognize a meme, pop culture reference or callback is applying fantasy to reality and since you're on BG so I think its fair to say you can do the aforementioned.

How about no.

[Niiro]

Do you know what the word meme actually means?

[Charismatic]

Do you know what the word recognize means?
Simply being able to recognize something is not the application of anything.

Since you want to get into the semantics... we can definitely go there.

[Plow]

They really are.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-y...ng-your-brain/

This is one of the more retarded things I've read lately, and reading through it and following a couple of the links to his other stuff, it's quite clear he's doing exactly what Anita does with desperately seeking shit to get offended by.

[Plow]

Like, really? All stories are intended to change people because tribalism. What?

[Shade]

What? The Cracked article isn't about being offended by everything. Yes it's Cracked, so it's supposed to be written in a sensationalist, slightly antagonistic style. No, videogames do not make you into a murderer, or a racist, or a different stripe of politician. But to say that none of it matters at all is equally stupid. All it's about is being aware of the fact that the things you see influence yourself and your worldview.


A couple less obnoxious reads about the same idea:
http://www.getstoried.com/hard-wired-for-storytelling/
http://bigthink.com/Mind-Matters/why...awn-to-stories

There have been great societies that did not use the wheel, but there have been no societies that did not tell stories.

—Ursula K. LeGuin

[Ashmada]

What? The Cracked article isn't about being offended by everything. Yes it's Cracked, so it's supposed to be written in a sensationalist, slightly antagonistic style. No, videogames do not make you into a murderer, or a racist, or a different stripe of politician. But to say that none of it matters at all is equally stupid. All it's about is being aware of the fact that the things you see influence yourself and your worldview.

Not all Cracked staff is equal in terms of brainpower, humour and basic human compassion. David Wong happens to be deficient in all 3.
Seriously, the guy's a cunt. Go read his article about suicide if you're not convinced, he's pretty much pushing people off rooftops, there.

As for idiocy, well, he falls for confirmation bias and then denounces it. In the same breath.


Anyway, you go to Cracked to plunge yourself into Bucholz' latest acid trip or get a cheer from Brockway's wide-eyed optimism, not to learn facts.



Back to the reason why there aren't many black protagonists (or characters as a whole) in non-sports VG... the reason could very well be that not many videogames are made in areas of the world where black people are a majority.
European companies mostly make white characters, Japanese companies mostly make asian characters (that are subsequently "whitened" for the western market) and so forth. African game companies are sparse, hence relatively few black characters.
It's even more pronounced when you consider nationality rather than ethnicity, in fact: 99% of the characters in US games/literature/movies/TV shows are american, most manga/anime feature Japanese characters (FMA excepted), you'd be hard-pressed to find a German cop show that doesn't feature DA POLIZEI or a French romance movie that doesn't involve a bunch of Parisians... it's merely natural to write what you know and want to showcase your own culture (particularly if it's not as widespread as US culture).

My point? Diversity should happen organically, not be forced through guilt-tripping.

[Shade]

Back to the reason why there aren't many black protagonists (or characters as a whole) in non-sports VG... the reason could very well be that not many videogames are made in areas of the world where black people are a majority.
European companies mostly make white characters, Japanese companies mostly make asian characters (that are subsequently "whitened" for the western market) and so forth. African game companies are sparse, hence relatively few black characters.
It's even more pronounced when you consider nationality rather than ethnicity, in fact: 99% of the characters in US games/literature/movies/TV shows are american, most manga/anime feature Japanese characters (FMA excepted), you'd be hard-pressed to find a German cop show that doesn't feature DA POLIZEI or a French romance movie that doesn't involve a bunch of Parisians... it's merely natural to write what you know and want to showcase your own culture (particularly if it's not as widespread as US culture).

My point? Diversity should happen organically, not be forced through guilt-tripping.

I don't disagree that you can't just force people to make games they don't believe in. But if no one asks for it, how will anyone know we're ready to see it? If we're not allowed to discuss the existence of disparity, because discussing it is guilt tripping, how will anything ever happen, organically or not? Won't things just stay the same because it looks like everyone is happy with the status quo?

And ok sure we can look at numbers, if numbers justify asking for changes. Even America isn't 99% rugged white dudes, so why are our game protagonists?

50% of humanity is female for example, and supposedly 45% of gamers are women (http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2013.pdf). Teenage boys are no longer the majority demographic, but we still target most of our games at them. Why is that? Devs have to fight to be allowed to have a female lead even though they DID organically decide that that's what they wanted to do, because "You can't make a dude like the player kiss another dude in the game, that's going to feel awkward." (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...e-protagonists)

[Ksandra]

And ok sure we can look at numbers, if numbers justify asking for changes. Even America isn't 99% rugged white dudes, so why are our game protagonists?

First this is all kinds of lol for a question. Games are about what people want to be, not what they actually are.

50% of humanity is female for example, and supposedly 45% of gamers are women (http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2013.pdf).

This includes things like farmville and bejeweled. There is no doubt in my mind a huge majority of fb games are played by women. For consoles it's shit like rpgs and the sims (which have female characters).

Teenage boys are no longer the majority demographic, but we still target most of our games at them. Why is that?

Because good business practice is about continuing to get new customers. Teenagers will have more time for games and have a lot more disposable income. They've already "got us hooked" from when we were teenagers, it's not as hard to keep us staying.


I honestly find it funny that the study you linked mentions one bit on male vs. female players in a very vague manner, and then never goes into detail which games they're playing. Skewed study is skewed.

[ronin sparthos]

Back to the reason why there aren't many black protagonists (or characters as a whole) in non-sports VG... the reason could very well be that not many videogames are made in areas of the world where black people are a majority.
European companies mostly make white characters, Japanese companies mostly make asian characters (that are subsequently "whitened" for the western market) and so forth. African game companies are sparse, hence relatively few black characters.
It's even more pronounced when you consider nationality rather than ethnicity, in fact: 99% of the characters in US games/literature/movies/TV shows are american, most manga/anime feature Japanese characters (FMA excepted), you'd be hard-pressed to find a German cop show that doesn't feature DA POLIZEI or a French romance movie that doesn't involve a bunch of Parisians... it's merely natural to write what you know and want to showcase your own culture (particularly if it's not as widespread as US culture).

My point? Diversity should happen organically, not be forced through guilt-tripping.

I don't think anyone is putting forth the idea that we should somehow push characters of other races into video games just for the hell of it as it leads to anvilicious results but it's still worth mentioning that in 2013 the amount of characters of the non-white persuasion leading a titular franchise is pathetic.

You don't initiate any change without bringing up the facts afterall.

Given enough time (the gaming industry is in its infancy afterall) things will no doubt change as new minds, faces and people jump into the craft. I mean we should put some perspective on video games as they are just becoming something the masses are beginning to accept as something people other than social rejects and basement dwellers can partake in and enjoy. In my own short life I've gone from being "that guy" that plays games that aren't Street Fighter / Mario Bros to being asked by people why I haven't played XYZ AAA title yet or how amazing XYZ title is. Oh and Call 'o Duty. Plenty of Call 'o Duty.

I'm sure some people on BG can recall a time where this medium didn't even exist.

[Ashmada]

I don't disagree that you can't just force people to make games they don't believe in. But if no one asks for it, how will anyone know we're ready to see it? If we're not allowed to discuss the existence of disparity, because discussing it is guilt tripping, how will anything ever happen, organically or not? Won't things just stay the same because it looks like everyone is happy with the status quo.

But is it disparity? (more further)
And is it discussion to say: "white characterz lolz" with absolutely no follow-up?

And ok sure we can look at numbers, if numbers justify asking for changes. Even America isn't 99% rugged white dudes, so why are our game protagonists?

But is it 99%? I don't imagine anyone counted (it'd be quite hard and tedious to, tbh), so that's just going from subjective perception, which is subject to a lot of biases, most saliently the confirmation bias.
Getting hard numbers would be quite hard.

I checked numbers for the US (wikipedia, too lazy to find bettar sauce):
- 80% white (including hispanics, because srsly, hispanics are white)
- 12.4% black
- 4.4% asian (<- now this number surprised me)
- .8% native american
(not 100% because multiracials)

And I don't have to remind you that you guys have an unusually high non-white population for a western country (owing mostly to slavery), so when you factor in all the western world and account for some statistical deviation, it shouldn't be surprising that 85%-90% characters are white.

50% of humanity is female for example, and supposedly 45% of gamers are women (http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2013.pdf). Teenage boys are no longer the majority demographic, but we still target most of our games at them. Why is that? Devs have to fight to be allowed to have a female lead even though they DID organically decide that that's what they wanted to do, because "You can't make a dude like the player kiss another dude in the game, that's going to feel awkward." (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...e-protagonists)

Problem is, you'll always face accusations of catering to teenage boys.
Idealised male protagonist? "You always feature male leads! Misogynists!"
Idealised female protagonist? "Objectification! Misogynists!"

With the discourse that some modern feminists hold, devs just can't win. Kasumi* and Lara Croft* are "sexual objects" (because they arbitrarily decided so), but Snake* and Dante* are not (because they arbitrarily decided so).


*sorry if my references are dated, I've not played offline games much since the PS2 era.