Feminism Thread

[Eurell]

I think she's grossly overstated her involvement with gaming in the video and demonstrated as much with what she's come up with in her videos so far. But 'hurr she's not a gamer' is such a nonstarter as far as discrediting her. I got a lot of people telling me to watch a shallow, useless video about someone's 'gamer cred' in response to a lot of shallow, useless videos about sexism in video games and pick a winner. lol

I think its not so much about her gamer cred, and more about the point that she directly contradicts herself.

[Correction]

I think its not so much about her gamer cred, and more about the point that she directly contradicts herself.

In 2010 she told a classroom she's not a fan, and not part of the fandom of video games.
In 2012 she told kickstarter she loves games and is a gamer.

so

fucking

what

Demonstrate some goddamn original thinking and post, don't just parrot the same ad hominem bullshit I've clearly heard for five posts in a row now.

[Eurell]

so

fucking

what

So she's being caught in a lie? Jesus Christ dude lol, who really gives a shit either way? Everyone knows she's a joke, and nobody sane agrees with her anyway. This is just poking more fun at her.

[Charismatic]

Holy shit, Correction... why are defending this?
Seriously, why?

How is blatantly lying for profit in any way defensible? What the fuck is wrong with you?

[Correction]

And here is where the real shame begins, people would rather get into a contest over who can bring the most personal shame to Anita Sarkeesian and her terrible videos than have a real, thoughtful discussion on a more constructive way to critique video games, to look a how gender, race, sexuality and family roles get represented across the medium. Sarkeesian's lazy TVTropes listwarring has got a lot of people thinking there couldn't possibly be a valid point about objectification, male domination or intolerance as a problem throughout the industry. Her ego gets in the way of her talking to actual women involved in the industry who no doubt would enrich the discussion. No, it has to be a project about her but the responses have made it so much worse and this is not her fucking fault. People freak out and get irrational when someone says something bad about their toys. A 9.0 review of GTAV by a female writer goes up and within hours hundreds of people are signing a petition to get the writer fired for writing an aside about it being 'politically muddled and mysogynistic.' This is a problem of acceptance, to say nothing of the trans-bashing undercurrent to the uproar. A woman writes a less-than-glowing review of Dragon's Crown because of the way women get portrayed and the internet loses its collective shit over claims of 'censorship' because someone dared not toe the line with the rest of the reviewers. Dragon Age 2 is a shit game, and Jennifer Hepler gets death threats. The gaming community has a huge problem and it extends beyond whether or not Princess Peach is an object in every Mario game. But the conversation has to start somewhere.

It's possible deep in your heart of hearts that you agree with at least one thing Anita Sarkeesian has said, but because her sloppy research, shit-for-brains pacing and questionable work ethic have made her very hard to sympathize with a lot of people have concluded that there is no problem with sexism in video games and the surrounding fandom and industry. Apparently if Anita is a liar about her gamer roots she's not right about anything.

Holy shit, Correction... why are defending this?
Seriously, why?

How is blatantly lying for profit in any way defensible? What the fuck is wrong with you?

What am I defending, exactly? Maybe if you weren't such a fucking tryhard you'd comprehend what you read before responding to it.

[BaneTheBrawler]

Nah, just her.
(Well, her and the fembots who are actually defending her dishonesty simply because they 'play for the same team'.)

have you seen the internet?! Everyone is terrible.

[Mazmaz]

I'm all for intellectual discourse, and as I've noted many times in this thread, I despise neo-feminists as much as you do. The only disagreement we have is in relation to the term itself, not the extremist behavior. Regarding anything "feminist" as extremist—that is equivalent to saying that any Christian is an abortion-demonizing member of the Ku Klux Klan, that every Muslim is an America-hating Jihadist (AKA: Being Church), and so on. Extremism is good for no one. It doesn't contribute to causes for equality, as extremism usually engenders destruction and exclusion, and features attacks against those who don't agree with severe representations of dogma. That's the sort of thing that Anita does, and that is why her work is total garbage.



Truthfully, that's not a simple point. Do you remember when Skirkle made it clear in spam that he was offended by my stating that your beliefs are in line with actual feminism efforts? That's because he's closer to the neo-feminist sort—he doesn't believe that men can be feminists as a matter of exclusion, not a matter of derision toward feminism. He believes they can only be "sympathizers." This sort of view is separationist rather than being inclusive, and that's why I poked fun at him, though there is a bit of serious criticism in there. That sort of mentality hurts equality efforts, because they are akin to telling someone they do not belong, and that they can never belong. I offered you an olive branch—someone like that would tell you to get out.

I somehow find it ironic that it's always people in the position of feminism that are called or portrayed to be an "extremist" or "neo-feminist" (sometimes rightly so), and people in the position of anti-feminism are never called "extremist". Chari is just your regular, average guy with regular average opinion regarding feminism even when he says extremist stuff (and we've heard him say that stuff quite a few times, haven't we?)

The whole thing is some sort of a... meta-patriarchy, where feminist extremism is attacked, and anti-feminist extremism isn't.

Could also be because we're on a video game forum though.

[Quicklet]

My biggest problem with Anita Sarkeesian is that she passes herself off as an expert on the subject, and many people give more weight to her arguments because of that. You can't blindly take a bunch of video submissions from your backers, look at them out of context, and then decide on the merits/flaws of those portions of a game any more than you can with clips/passages from movies/books. You can use them as examples, sure, but you usually can't divorce them from the overall context of the work as a whole, and this is where she fails the most in making a sincere effort to make arguments on how to improve the quality and artistic authenticity of games.

I've probably said this before, but I'd much prefer for the people who are trying to address any issues from the ground up, who are encouraging women to learn how to design and program games or who are creating their own indie companies to do it themselves, to get more attention and recognition. These are positive examples that don't seek to exploit a polarizing issue for personal gain.

[Kohan]

Chari is just your regular, average guy with regular average opinion regarding feminism even when he says extremist stuff (and we've heard him say that stuff quite a few times, haven't we?)

Is this sarcasm?

The whole thing is some sort of a... meta-patriarchy, where feminist extremism is attacked, and anti-feminist extremism isn't.

It isn't?

Have you read any of this thread at all?

I commend you for writing more than an incomplete sentence, but I can't comprehend the relevance of your statement. I understand completely what you're trying to say (extremism in feminism is being attacked while extremism in anti-feminism is not), but that doesn't apply to this conversation. Shit, the very post of mine that you quoted takes to task the idea that all feminism is bad—that in of itself is a critique of the concept of pure anti-feminism.

[Mazmaz]

Maybe it's just the fact that things like how Anita and her supporters are "feminazis" are much more visible compared to subtle critiques that you stated. That probably contributes to the perception that anti-feminists are not being criticized nearly as much as they should be.

[Kohan]

Maybe it's just the fact that things like how Anita and her supporters are "feminazis" are much more visible compared to subtle critiques that you stated.

I don't believe that talking about feminism in-depth and highlighting how even Susan B. Anthony discouraged extremism is "subtle," but sure.

[Eurell]

And here is where the real shame begins, people would rather get into a contest over who can bring the most personal shame to Anita Sarkeesian and her terrible videos than have a real, thoughtful discussion on a more constructive way to critique video games, to look a how gender, race, sexuality and family roles get represented across the medium. Sarkeesian's lazy TVTropes listwarring has got a lot of people thinking there couldn't possibly be a valid point about objectification, male domination or intolerance as a problem throughout the industry. Her ego gets in the way of her talking to actual women involved in the industry who no doubt would enrich the discussion. No, it has to be a project about her but the responses have made it so much worse and this is not her fucking fault. People freak out and get irrational when someone says something bad about their toys. A 9.0 review of GTAV by a female writer goes up and within hours hundreds of people are signing a petition to get the writer fired for writing an aside about it being 'politically muddled and mysogynistic.' This is a problem of acceptance, to say nothing of the trans-bashing undercurrent to the uproar. A woman writes a less-than-glowing review of Dragon's Crown because of the way women get portrayed and the internet loses its collective shit over claims of 'censorship' because someone dared not toe the line with the rest of the reviewers. Dragon Age 2 is a shit game, and Jennifer Hepler gets death threats. The gaming community has a huge problem and it extends beyond whether or not Princess Peach is an object in every Mario game. But the conversation has to start somewhere.

It's possible deep in your heart of hearts that you agree with at least one thing Anita Sarkeesian has said, but because her sloppy research, shit-for-brains pacing and questionable work ethic have made her very hard to sympathize with a lot of people have concluded that there is no problem with sexism in video games and the surrounding fandom and industry. Apparently if Anita is a liar about her gamer roots she's not right about anything.

.

So what you're getting at is, people are assholes? Dude, its the internet, it has nothing to with with gamers (or any other group) specifically. It's fulled with horrible fucking people lol. You can post anything and get death threats. Ffs, I have gotten death threats from people in XI for asking people to come to LS events lol.

I'm not saying that its ok for people to make death threats. I'm just saying that its fucking irrelevant to the funny little video of Anita contradicting exactly what she said to take money from people. You look like you're freaking the fuck out, and Idk if anyone understands why lol.

[Kuya]

And here is where the real shame begins, people would rather get into a contest over who can bring the most personal shame to Anita Sarkeesian and her terrible videos than have a real, thoughtful discussion on a more constructive way to critique video games, to look a how gender, race, sexuality and family roles get represented across the medium. Sarkeesian's lazy TVTropes listwarring has got a lot of people thinking there couldn't possibly be a valid point about objectification, male domination or intolerance as a problem throughout the industry. Her ego gets in the way of her talking to actual women involved in the industry who no doubt would enrich the discussion. No, it has to be a project about her but the responses have made it so much worse and this is not her fucking fault. People freak out and get irrational when someone says something bad about their toys. A 9.0 review of GTAV by a female writer goes up and within hours hundreds of people are signing a petition to get the writer fired for writing an aside about it being 'politically muddled and mysogynistic.' This is a problem of acceptance, to say nothing of the trans-bashing undercurrent to the uproar. A woman writes a less-than-glowing review of Dragon's Crown because of the way women get portrayed and the internet loses its collective shit over claims of 'censorship' because someone dared not toe the line with the rest of the reviewers. Dragon Age 2 is a shit game, and Jennifer Hepler gets death threats. The gaming community has a huge problem and it extends beyond whether or not Princess Peach is an object in every Mario game. But the conversation has to start somewhere.

It's possible deep in your heart of hearts that you agree with at least one thing Anita Sarkeesian has said, but because her sloppy research, shit-for-brains pacing and questionable work ethic have made her very hard to sympathize with a lot of people have concluded that there is no problem with sexism in video games and the surrounding fandom and industry. Apparently if Anita is a liar about her gamer roots she's not right about anything.



What am I defending, exactly? Maybe if you weren't such a fucking tryhard you'd comprehend what you read before responding to it.

I think it goes even farther than women's issues. My perception is that the gaming community is highly infantile.

[Correction]

My perception is that the gaming community is highly infantile.

I think it's highly tribal and the primitive instinct to defend what's yours (lest someone take it away) against threats real and imagined is amplified by the anonymity the internet offers. So yeah, lots of manchildren on Twitter and elsewhere who might otherwise be ordinary people.

[Churchill]

i find the mmo gaming community to have a lot of gays leading pretend lives and most everyone else is a bitch ass faggot

[Charismatic]

My biggest problem with Anita Sarkeesian is that she passes herself off as an expert on the subject, and many people give more weight to her arguments because of that. You can't blindly take a bunch of video submissions from your backers, look at them out of context, and then decide on the merits/flaws of those portions of a game any more than you can with clips/passages from movies/books. You can use them as examples, sure, but you usually can't divorce them from the overall context of the work as a whole, and this is where she fails the most in making a sincere effort to make arguments on how to improve the quality and artistic authenticity of games.

I've probably said this before, but I'd much prefer for the people who are trying to address any issues from the ground up, who are encouraging women to learn how to design and program games or who are creating their own indie companies to do it themselves, to get more attention and recognition. These are positive examples that don't seek to exploit a polarizing issue for personal gain.

Keep it 100, son. Right on the money.

[ronin sparthos]

I think it's highly tribal and the primitive instinct to defend what's yours (lest someone take it away) against threats real and imagined is amplified by the anonymity the internet offers. So yeah, lots of manchildren on Twitter and elsewhere who might otherwise be ordinary people.

Is your typical gamer 'ordinary' to begin with? The gaming community, especially hardcores, are made up of socially bankrupt, sexually frustrated men rejected by mainstream society for their dedication to their hobby. It's amusing considering that the social framework that academic feminism critiques is the very reason that gamers are in the position they're in to begin with. Gaming hasn't been accepted into the manly pantheon and the few genres that have only skirt under the fence because they emulate accepted male behaviors. Sports, fighting, FPS etcetc.

I wouldn't underestimate the number of bitter male gamers taking out their misogynistic rage on the internet because some broad demeaned them in High School or because they never bothered to spend time building social relationships that hone the ability to communicate and thus draw closer to the opposite sex. No time for that shit, gotta camp Fafs and assert dominance over all wyrmkind.

[Charismatic]

Is your typical gamer 'ordinary' to begin with? The gaming community, especially hardcores, are made up of socially bankrupt, sexually frustrated men rejected by mainstream society for their dedication to their hobby. It's amusing considering that the social framework that academic feminism critiques is the very reason that gamers are in the position they're in to begin with. Gaming hasn't been accepted into the manly pantheon and the few genres that have only skirt under the fence because they emulate accepted male behaviors. Sports, fighting, FPS etcetc.

I wouldn't underestimate the number of bitter male gamers taking out their misogynistic rage on the internet because some broad demeaned them in High School or because they never bothered to spend time building social relationships that hone the ability to communicate and thus draw closer to the opposite sex. No time for that shit, gotta camp Fafs and assert dominance over all wyrmkind.

what the fuck am I reading?
do you honestly believe the things you type or is this all a sick joke?

[ronin sparthos]

what the fuck am I reading?
do you honestly believe the things you type or is this all a sick joke?

Your deep and insightful response is duly noted.

[Charismatic]

Why would I need to reply to something so blatantly off-base with anything deep and insightful? You place this expectation on me that you don't have on yourself.

You honestly believe the "typical" gamer is this recluse? Also, I don't know how you think probing questions are meant to be 'insightful' anyway. But please, answer them.