Feminism Thread

[Correction]

Did you click the other links? Where its been said many times that the guys shes fucked made sure her name or game gets zero negative publicity?

People are reallllly stretching it if they think everyone who's given her a hint of positive press (which adds up to maybe 2 articles? I forget) is doing it for sexual favors instead of, you know, because the indie scene is small and everyone is friends with everybody else.

There are two issues with Zoe Quinn that are maybe worth discussing. One is Phil Fish yelling a guy off the internet for suggesting she sexually harassed him at a wedding who knows how long ago. That's on Phil Fish and not Zoe Quinn, and the facts of what happened there are a lot of he said she said and without much else to go on it's not a huge surprise that it didn't garner a lot of interest on actual sites that cover actual gaming news.

The second is that game jam thing, in which maybe Zoe pulled support for poor reasons. Oh well!

What's happened is that nobody can have a reasonable discussion about the two because they intermingle all the other unfounded bullshit based almost entirely on a) a rant published by an ex-boyfriend and b) allegations pulled out of thin air that she slept with Patrick Klepek. These two things added up to the 'Zoe Quinn trades favors for sex' and folks have literally drawn diagrams out of A Beautiful Mind to make a web of sex and favoritism that centers on Zoe Quinn. It's all very TMZ and probably not a big deal but I guess because the #notallmen crowd have latched onto it there's a lot of noise about why this gossipy molehill isn't a big deal in more places. Holy crap, sometimes people don't want to talk about their sex lives in front of millions. Such a huge scandal.

[Meresgi]

Did you click the link? Nobody has written a single review for her games.

one point, her game received an award from IndieCade 2013

She had sex with Robin Arnott from Indiecade in 2013, before her gamed was released in 2014. Robin Arnott is part of the Indiecade committee, and in charge of the Night Game selection at Indiecade.

Not sure if this was one of the 3 out of 5 that was confirmed.

Because we are only talking about reviews, and not any favors given in return for supposed sex. Yes the indie community is small and at this point resembles a fucking tumblr clique in a lot of areas, but there are still a good deal of critics like TotalBiscuit who lambasted her and then were censored on sites like Reddit.



Nathan admitted to having a relationship with Quinn, but according to Kotaku it wasn't a big deal. Though he never admitted to it regarding someone he had written about already until it was brought to light. Maybe there was no influence at all, maybe there was. Look at the guy who made Cards against Humanity when he was charged with rape and how people flipped out and wrote huge essays on it, then flip around and dictate that "If you post private details you will be banned!". According to Quinn's own definition she "raped" her ex boyfriend and admitted to it basically in a chat conversation. Is it really rape? Not to me honestly, but if you're going to hold people to standards that you yourself don't adhere to.

I think the issue here is focusing too much on Quinn and not focusing on what has come about due to this Quinn shit, and that is how fucked up game journalism is as well as some in the indie scene for game development.

Holy crap, sometimes people don't want to talk about their sex lives in front of millions. Such a huge scandal.

Yet they sure feel fine talking about EVERYONE else's sex life and condemning people.

http://kotaku.com/reporter-apologize...ale-1505393796
http://kotaku.com/indiestatik-founde...fro-1506875575

IndieStatik founder Josh Mattingly has stepped down from his position "for the immediate future" following his apology earlier this week for sending crude sexual comments to a female game developer

This was apparently over a comment made. Article has the chat history.

https://soundcloud.com/ben-kuchera/jaffe-confrontation

Gaem Journolizm

[Charismatic]

I hope your realize that Correction and Kuya are going to ride for this woman no matter what, you're wasting your time.
Trust that they'd be condemning all of the name was Zack Quinn though.

[Correction]

one point, her game received an award from IndieCade 2013

Again, not a review. Didn't know you were championing another game for that award? Which one was it?

there are still a good deal of critics like TotalBiscuit who lambasted her and then were censored on sites like Reddit.

Okay? Is that Quinn's fault?

Nathan admitted to having a relationship with Quinn, but according to Kotaku it wasn't a big deal.

Why would it be a big deal, again? Kotaku's written zero about Depression quest outside of mentioning it amid a list of other indie games. Hardly a conflict of interest.

Look at the guy who made Cards against Humanity when he was charged with rape and how people flipped out and wrote huge essays on it

Looks like Quinn's getting the exact same treatment. Why are you crying injustice?

I think the issue here is focusing too much on Quinn and not focusing on what has come about due to this Quinn shit, and that is how fucked up game journalism is as well as some in the indie scene for game development.

Spends time focusing on Quinn, says we shouldn't focus too much on Quinn. Okay.

Yet they sure feel fine talking about EVERYONE else's sex life and condemning people.

http://kotaku.com/reporter-apologize...ale-1505393796
http://kotaku.com/indiestatik-founde...fro-1506875575

Maybe if there was more to the allegations that Quinn sexually harassed a dude at a wedding than he said/she said there would be something to write about it. But we'll never know because Phil Fish is a prick. And I think I already mentioned that there is possibly something here, but it's a murky bunch of recriminations in Quinn's case and Mattingly was caught red-handed being a harassing creep.

Gaem Journolizm

Polygon. You just posted Polygon as if it weren't already the least reputable enthusiast press site in existence and then behave scandalized when Ben Kuchera takes a dumb stand on an issue.

Zoey Quinn could very well not be a nice person. Depression Quest is a bad game and I have no connection to it or her. But what I'm seeing goes well beyond the 'hey maybe that guy Phil Fish yelled at has more to say' angle that probably should be the crux of everything and seems inseparable from the 'she sleeps around to peddle influence' angle, which is pure slut shaming. It's embarrassing to watch lol.

[Edelweiss]

I hope your realize that Correction and Kuya are going to ride for this woman no matter what, you're wasting your time.
Trust that they'd be condemning all of the name was Zack Quinn though.

I'm disappointed that he's been whiteknighting her so hard, being the shitty person (who did multiple shitty and underhanded things) she is. He's managed to be consistently in the right in both the Israel and Ferguson threads, but he's just been so fucking wrong here. I guess two out of three ain't bad.

You might as well cross post that shit from Spam too, some of those were good. Also, Correction is out doing Demo on the whiteknighting. Shit son, polish your armor; just because you got engaged doesn't mean there aren't fair maidens out there who require your shield.

[Kuya]

I didn't know that asking for proof over speculation was whiteknighting.

It just seems like a bunch of people who have some antipathy to this woman or feminism in general took a couple of facts and stretched it out into a conspiracy.

Maybe if this argument weren't full of mras and anti-feminists, a genuine debate over ethics and accountability in gaming journalism could be had. For example, if robin was sleeping with zoe during that contest, than the ethical thing for robin to do is to have excused himself from that panel. There is also the question of whether people who cover games, should be sleeping with the people who make games. Or at the very least, whether they should provide prior disclosure of the relationship if they were ever to coincide. These are all very reasonable issues, but the people driving this argument just seem to be outright crazy and out for a witch hunt.

[Kuya]

The fact that this debate is going on in the feminism thread, is also suspect, since this issue seems to have little to do with feminism and more to do with gaming journalism.

[Meresgi]

Okay? Is that Quinn's fault?

Never said it was

Again, not a review. Didn't know you were championing another game for that award? Which one was it?

An award in no way helps a game.

Maybe if there was more to the allegations that Quinn sexually harassed a dude at a wedding

Well she did rape her ex apparently so there's that.

Maybe if this argument weren't full of mras and anti-feminists and tumblr SJWs

[Kuya]

I accept your correction. Tumblr feminists who want to say this whole issue is because zoe is a women are also speculating. Maybe true, but they have a lot on their plate if they want to prove that.

[Charismatic]

Looks like Quinn's getting the exact same treatment. Why are you crying injustice?

Except she isn't.
You might want to look at the articles people wrote about it and the articles people are writing about her situation.

[Edelweiss]

The fact that this debate is going on in the feminism thread, is also suspect, since this issue seems to have little to do with feminism and more to do with gaming journalism.

Apparently we've had just as hard a time as anyone else in sticking to the primary issue: the fucking atrocious, perhaps incestious existence of "gaming journalism."

Her infidelities and other deceitful shit is kinda ancillary to pointing out how rotten and corrupt the indie scene and this facet of journalism is though in closing ranks around her/the circle of people in the business. MRAs, tumblr feminists, whiteknights and SJWs be damned.

Edit: Also, when we're talking "feminists" we're not talking "tumblr feminists," right? Or third-wave feminists or whatever. Because those are the kind that most of the people you're siding against here have major issues with, as past posts in this thread attest to (again barring some exceptions).

[Charismatic]

Apparently we've had just as hard a time as anyone else in sticking to the primary issue: the fucking atrocious, perhaps incestious existence of "gaming journalism."

Her infidelities and other deceitful shit is kinda ancillary to pointing out how rotten and corrupt the indie scene and this facet of journalism is though in closing ranks around her/the circle of people in the business. MRAs, tumblr feminists, whiteknights and SJWs be damned.

Aye, that's why I've not had much to say about the situation in this thread other than to call out the whiteknighting. I mean damn niggas rushed to that defense QUICK!
I actually think the whole thing is actually more funny than anything. Gameing Journalism is shit and was shit before Zoe and will continue to be shit after. Not much to say other than to post funny pictures/videos about this incident and laugh at the whiteknights.

[Correction]

the shitty person (who did multiple shitty and underhanded things) she is.

I might again point out I'm not arguing about her moral character and whether or not that disqualifies her as a voice for feminism, but that the general tenor of discussion about this gossip has generally been a slew of personal attacking without a) a well-qualified list of accusations that doesn't include the usual poorly-sourced slut-shaming and b) a defined endgame. Critical thinking requires that you establish what the problem is, and then identify how to solve that problem. If everyone's problem is that Zoe Quinn is a bad person and should feel bad about having sex, there's nothing I or anybody else can do about that, I just don't find it very interesting or newsworthy a subject. If everyone's problem is that Kotaku/Polygon/Some Indie Scene guys are disreputable and shouldn't be trusted by anybody, okay we're already in agreement in that since long before anybody heard the words "Depression Quest." If everyone's problem is that somewhere on Reddit or...I dunno where else, discussion is being tamped down about this then my questions are 'were the discussions worth having or is it more of the same TMZ/Access Hollywood scandalizing?' and 'who is seeing any gain from doing that?'

[Cantih]

a) a well-qualified list of accusations that doesn't include the usual poorly-sourced slut-shaming ... If everyone's problem is that Zoe Quinn is a bad person and should feel bad about having sex, there's nothing I or anybody else can do about that, I just don't find it very interesting or newsworthy a subject.

While there surely are people thinking that, (and the bad ones will then take the opportunity to tar bigger than the target), it's not simply that she was sleeping around. It's that she did so while in another relationship.

Slut-shaming is bad. Single people can fuck as many people as they like within the bounds of safety and sanity.
Cheater shaming otoh, you're not really going to convince many that that's a bad thing to do.

[Correction]

It's that she did so while in another relationship.

And that's not a nice thing to do. But why does the world care?

[Cantih]

In this case, the list of who she did it with, combined with her industry and profession, is concerning.

[Correction]

In this case, the list of who she did it with, combined with her industry and profession, is concerning.

So people want gossip. Got it.

[Meresgi]

And that's not a nice thing to do. But why does the world care?

If you think the whole issue is that she slept around and that's why most people are pissed off, then you have no idea what's going on. It's 100% about the indie scene in game development and journalism mixed with some SJW Tumblr action and shit.

If everyone's problem is that somewhere on Reddit or...I dunno where else, discussion is being tamped down about this then my questions are 'were the discussions worth having or is it more of the same TMZ/Access Hollywood scandalizing?' and 'who is seeing any gain from doing that?'

The discussion at the start wasn't much of anything. Some butterface chick slept with some people in the game journalism community and this may or may not have had an effect on her game's reception. This in turn began the discussion of "Well if this is going on and we found out about it, what other shit is there behind the scenes as well?". It spiraled out of of that and due to all of these "publications" cutting off any and all criticism under the subtext of "well you're talking about her sex life, that's no cool" it's blown up to what we have no. Streisand effect pure and simple.

So people want gossip. Got it.

lol it's not just gossip when it's between 2 people that can benefit from the sex beyond getting off.

[Kohan]

This in turn began the discussion of "Well if this is going on and we found out about it, what other shit is there behind the scenes as well?".

Man, I could host an entire fucking seminar on this shit. The video game journalism industry is positively plagued with nonsense. There's a reason anyone who's any good in it gets awfully burned out and runs away screaming.

I haven't read about this whole current controversy at all besides a blurb on Kotaku, though, so I can't give any educated, direct commentary on the subject. However, I can say it's hilarious that it took something like this to get so many people all worked up. Have we already forgotten Doritogate? Or Gertsmann? Or Hsu versus Cook?

Do all of these people not realize that previews, reviews, etc., are bought off and censored all the time? Now, you could say that's any industry, but who wants to write about video games when it's a job that's about universally crapped on by its readership, and looked down upon by anyone writing virtually anything else? It's either "I'm gonna get mine" or "I'm gonna get out."

[Correction]

lol it's not just gossip when it's between 2 people that can benefit from the sex beyond getting off.

What 'benefit?' Really, what did anybody gain from this? Nobody's answering this question.