Feminism Thread

[Correction]

I agree. This is likely the finest article on the subject that I've read, especially since it makes a point of discussing the acknowledged corruption in the industry, all while not paying any real mind to the Zoe Quinn thing. That speaks to the quality of the piece.

There are less wishy-washy posts on the subject but they do take quite a bit of digging.

[Edelweiss]

In every instance I've seen 'SJW' lobbed at someone it's been the second definition, and suggesting its used as anything other than a cudgel meant to silence those who speak up is dishonest to say the least.

If you think it's never the first, then you'd be wrong. Kotaku is probably the most notorious of the clickbaiters.

I guess I agree with him that #gamergate is a whole lot of nothing, lunatics running the asylum in a pointless social media war engineered to distract everyone it can from actually discussing issues regarding representation in video games for anybody who feels underserved by modern publishers.

Is that really an issue though? I don't know anyone who needs to relate to a character to maximize their enjoyment of something. I don't give a shit if the main character(s) are straight, gay, bi, or anything in the alphabet soup of sexual identities; I care about a good plot, storyline and gameplay. If you're upset about your representation (or lack thereof) in works of fiction, it could be worse.

You could end up with Dragon Age 2.

[Correction]

If you think it's never the first, then you'd be wrong. Kotaku is probably the most notorious of the clickbaiters.

I've simply never seen it used in that context. It's the same class of discussion-ending ad hominem as 'white knight' and signifies absolutely nothing more than dismissive walling off of opposing viewpoints. Kotaku has plenty of clickbait, but for one it's extremely easy to identify and ignore and for another Kotaku is hardly the worst of it. The hyperbole has been flying around for so long that it's overtaken any reasonable descriptions and it's frothing over now in the current flame war.

Is that really an issue though?

Yes, it is.
http://i.minus.com/ibjmcIcwllopWt.png
http://i.minus.com/ijW0Xd3ySmQmO.png
Simply throwing up your hands and saying 'well I don't have a problem with it or a personal stake in the matter,' is not sufficient to demonstrate otherwise, nor is pretending at some wide conspiracy in which everyone who says it is a problem is in it for clicks and personal gain.

[Edelweiss]

Yes, it is.
http://i.minus.com/ibjmcIcwllopWt.png
http://i.minus.com/ijW0Xd3ySmQmO.png
Simply throwing up your hands and saying 'well I don't have a problem with it or a personal stake in the matter,' is not sufficient to demonstrate otherwise, nor is pretending at some wide conspiracy in which everyone who says it is a problem is in it for clicks and personal gain.

To be clear, i'm saying I don't give a fuck if it facilitates an enjoyable game; gameplay or story-wise. And i'm not sure how you're drawing the conclusion that i'm suggesting there's a conspiracy here man. I'm taking issue with the notion that games must represent someone or some group; that they must be inclusive and inoffensive. That's something I think to be completely false and unnecessary to a game, a work of fiction. I retain skepticism when it comes to people having a problem with something like this, when they remain actively involved in the industry.

If you feel this is an issue, then I guess we just have totally differing viewpoints on it. No black man killed in fiction is Michael Brown or Trayvon Martin. No woman killed in fiction or serving as a prostitute in a fictional brothel is an outrage and evidence of widespread misogyny.

[Meresgi]

Wtf is bio2? Bioshock 2?

[Cantih]

Yes

[quannum]

nor is pretending at some wide conspiracy in which everyone who says it is a problem is in it for clicks and personal gain.

wide conspiracy is a bit much, but collusion for personal gain can't be argued against. you don't counter that point by writing tomes about the patriarchy.

[Edelweiss]

wide conspiracy is a bit much, but collusion for personal gain can't be argued against. you don't counter that point by writing tomes about the patriarchy.

Earnings are definitely at stake. We'd be fools to think that developers and publishers aren't trying to leverage the best shot at a successful product as possible (even if it's a shitty pandering attempt).

And yeah, i'm not sure where he concludes i'm suggesting a wide conspiracy. In the case of the Zoe Quinn Saga, it's just gaming journalism closing ranks to protect their private shithole industry and the nigh-incestious collusion that's been going on for years (and that maybe finally broke when she was proven to be a real shitty person). That's been evident from the start, and the feminism/claims of mysogyny aspect is somewhat ancillary to pointing out why this is fucking bullshit (and how they almost got away with it by playing the mysogyny card, which is sort of a trumph card when it comes to silencing criticism nowadays).

[Qalbert]

the biggest problem with the whole thing is that the time that people finally decide to say "HEY WE HAVE HAD IT WITH YOUR CORRUPT BULLSHIT" happens to coincide with the time the inciting incident is about a woman allegedly fucking for reviews. yes corruption in 'journalism' is bad and should be dealt with, but the fact that it started because of the "quinnspiracy" certainly LOOKS like it's suddenly about women and sends the wrong message, and the people who are being the loudest are the ones being the most offensive towards women/people in general. if the push to end corruption had happened back during Kane and Lynch bullshit instead of now I don't think it would have been nearly as heated, the timing and overlap on issues here does a huge disservice to all involved as they get pitched against each other in ever-escalating waves of bullshit

to use a shitty analogy, it would be like trying to eat a meal and some people show up being loud. you ignore it. more people show up. ignore it. still more people show up, you ignore it. another obnoxious person shows up and you flip your shit and start yelling at him and oh by the way he's a black guy, and you claim you're not trying to be racist, but you didn't yell at anyone until the black guy showed up. the obnoxious people call you a racist, and then a guy at your table starts hurling the n-word, and one of the obnoxious people is like "if you don't like us then fuck off, your time for eating is over" etc etc

[quannum]

Consumers (gamers) have increasingly viewed the press as “in bed” with the industry rather than working for consumers.

lol

yea the problem would still be there if we were talking about joe quinn instead.

[Callisto]

the biggest problem with the whole thing is that the time that people finally decide to say "HEY WE HAVE HAD IT WITH YOUR CORRUPT BULLSHIT" happens to coincide with the time the inciting incident is about a woman allegedly fucking for reviews. yes corruption in 'journalism' is bad and should be dealt with, but the fact that it started because of the "quinnspiracy" certainly LOOKS like it's suddenly about women and sends the wrong message, and the people who are being the loudest are the ones being the most offensive towards women/people in general. if the push to end corruption had happened back during Kane and Lynch bullshit instead of now I don't think it would have been nearly as heated, the timing and overlap on issues here does a huge disservice to all involved as they get pitched against each other in ever-escalating waves of bullshit

to use a shitty analogy, it would be like trying to eat a meal and some people show up being loud. you ignore it. more people show up. ignore it. still more people show up, you ignore it. another obnoxious person shows up and you flip your shit and start yelling at him and oh by the way he's a black guy, and you claim you're not trying to be racist, but you didn't yell at anyone until the black guy showed up. the obnoxious people call you a racist, and then a guy at your table starts hurling the n-word, and one of the obnoxious people is like "if you don't like us then fuck off, your time for eating is over" etc etc

This might be the only good post I've ever seen in poopdeck

[Edelweiss]

the biggest problem with the whole thing is that the time that people finally decide to say "HEY WE HAVE HAD IT WITH YOUR CORRUPT BULLSHIT" happens to coincide with the time the inciting incident is about a woman allegedly fucking for reviews. yes corruption in 'journalism' is bad and should be dealt with, but the fact that it started because of the "quinnspiracy" certainly LOOKS like it's suddenly about women and sends the wrong message, and the people who are being the loudest are the ones being the most offensive towards women/people in general. if the push to end corruption had happened back during Kane and Lynch bullshit instead of now I don't think it would have been nearly as heated, the timing and overlap on issues here does a huge disservice to all involved as they get pitched against each other in ever-escalating waves of bullshit

So basically you're saying that some extremist elements are obfuscating the message and you're worried people won't be able to see past it?

I'd probably say it has something to do with literally trading sex for favortism, that broke this in comparison to any of the many notorious things we've seen surface in the past. That might have literally been it for many. At least the fucking was metaphorical in the sense of Dew and Doritos, or what have you. The fact that she fucked a bunch of guys to position her game better (or the guys fucked her if you insist on that view) is probably the oldest and most basic means of personal advancement/gain. That she spouts some retarded feminist rhetoric that she herself transgressed in such amazing hypocripsy is somewhat of a red herring here, and has only served to facilitate her defenders plausibly utilizing every anti-mysogyny tactic availible.

[Vixy]

I've simply never seen it used in that context. It's the same class of discussion-ending ad hominem as 'white knight' and signifies absolutely nothing more than dismissive walling off of opposing viewpoints. Kotaku has plenty of clickbait, but for one it's extremely easy to identify and ignore and for another Kotaku is hardly the worst of it. The hyperbole has been flying around for so long that it's overtaken any reasonable descriptions and it's frothing over now in the current flame war.



Yes, it is.
http://i.minus.com/ibjmcIcwllopWt.png
http://i.minus.com/ijW0Xd3ySmQmO.png
Simply throwing up your hands and saying 'well I don't have a problem with it or a personal stake in the matter,' is not sufficient to demonstrate otherwise, nor is pretending at some wide conspiracy in which everyone who says it is a problem is in it for clicks and personal gain.

Your posts are such bait, but I can't let this one go. You are really posting an image of a director who was put over a barrel by their higher-ups to placate the feminist crowd for no other reason than a chance of bad PR, and not because they actually give the slightest shit on their ever changing whims? "everything Bio2 was called out for, we deserved." He didn't mean a single word of it and me, you, and anyone with a rational brain knows he was just groveling. The industry has been beaten into complete submission over what they can say/do because it's just "easier" that way.

[Vixy]

if the push to end corruption had happened back during Kane and Lynch bullshit instead of now I don't think it would have been nearly as heated

S e v e n y e a r s a g o. Social media is nothing like it was back then, not even close. The mass majority of people didn't speak their mind like they feel they need to now. Everything didn't gravitate around social media like it does currently.

[Ezek]

For those that missed out on the live segment from earlier.

lol'ed at the faux news defense.

[Edelweiss]

Your posts are such bait

Not bait if he actually believes this stuff. I don't really take a fictional brothel that you apparently have to go into for something (didn't play the game) in which fictional sexual acts occur with fictional women, who along with the fictional patrons and other fictional non-prostitute employees form an living environment in a videogame, to be outrageous misogyny. You could make make an argument for poor taste or something if the brothel was completely unnecessary, but that's about it. Someone who actually played the game could chime in on that if they want. Or don't. It's really not a big deal.

S e v e n y e a r s a g o. Social media is nothing like it was back then, not even close. The mass majority of people didn't speak their mind like they feel they need to now. Everything didn't gravitate around social media like it does currently.

To piggyback off this, the only reason why this is "heated" (as compared to say without the presence of a certain group or factor) is because people think (or thought) this is some organized mysogynistic attack on poor Zoe Quinn. It's not many people who are doing it; even looking at /v/ could have told you that as there (were) constant efforts to tell the people trying to "slut shame" to shut the fuck up as it merely gives her defenders ammo. Her defenders, as anyone should have realized by now, have added fuel to the fires of gamer rage by painting them with broad brushes and generalizations. Being that many of her defenders have industry pulpits, that only magnifies the visibility (and perhaps the apparent credibility) of their attacks; something that definitely pisses those opposed off. It's definitely much harder to rebuff their accusations and claims when you're a lot of people with somewhat tenious organization and lots of dissenting opinions who can easily shit up the counter-industry message.

It's been made harder by the fact that it's hard to rebuff the mysogyny card when her side plays it (and they have since the moment this broke), and you're a largely anonymous, faceless and heterogenous collective group that has a multitude of people in your pocket with the authority and position that the industry side has. So really all those opposed to the industry side have is their anger and determination to tear this corrupt, cancerous shit down. And facts, I guess, if those can overcome the self-preservation efforts of the industry.

I'm skeptical we're going to win, frankly. Too easy for apathy to set in if a setback occurs, or the industry gains momentum against us. It's too easy for the side of Quinn et. al. to capitalize on their smear campaign-established misconceptions of the very people they supposedly exist to sell to and inform. Make no mistake: this is bigger than Zoe and the Five Guys, but those six are implicitly involved in the cancer that is the problem; their role in it was to make literal what used to be a metaphor.

[Galkaeater]

relevent

[Arelian]

To piggyback off this, the only reason why this is "heated" (as compared to say without the presence of a certain group or factor) is because people think (or thought) this is some organized mysogynistic attack on poor Zoe Quinn. It's not many people who are doing it; even looking at /v/ could have told you that as there (were) constant efforts to tell the people trying to "slut shame" to shut the fuck up as it merely gives her defenders ammo. Her defenders, as anyone should have realized by now, have added fuel to the fires of gamer rage by painting them with broad brushes and generalizations. Being that many of her defenders have industry pulpits, that only magnifies the visibility (and perhaps the apparent credibility) of their attacks; something that definitely pisses those opposed off. It's definitely much harder to rebuff their accusations and claims when you're a lot of people with somewhat tenious organization and lots of dissenting opinions who can easily shit up the counter-industry message.

^This, this, this. There are legitimate concerns that people want addressed, but it's impossible to have a conversation because 1) What the fuck, Twitter. 2) There are people that will gladly say something miserable and shitty just because.

It's borderline impossible to maintain a calm, rational discussion when someone points their ass at the conversation and take a huge, sloppy dump all over it at a moment's notice.

So while the discussions absolutely need to happen, people need to cool off and then figure out how to even have the conversation without the feces-slingers dominating people's feeds.

[Correction]

wide conspiracy is a bit much, but collusion for personal gain can't be argued against. you don't counter that point by writing tomes about the patriarchy.

This viewpoint would be much more persuasive if we weren't talking about obvious commercial ventures like ad-driven blog networks, or miniscule amounts of money like patreon. You are allowed to make money and have a social perspective.

He didn't mean a single word of it and me, you, and anyone with a rational brain knows he was just groveling.

Your evidence of this is where, exactly?

[quannum]

This viewpoint would be much more persuasive if we weren't talking about obvious commercial ventures like ad-driven blog networks, or miniscule amounts of money like patreon. You are allowed to make money and have a social perspective.

you're argument here is laughable, try again.

its just a miniscule amount of collusion guys