Feminism Thread

[Correction]

you're argument here is laughable, try again.

its just a miniscule amount of collusion guys

The gains made over speaking up on social issues don't really make it seem like collusion either happened or was very successful. If the charge is that commercial sites are using clickbait to make money, then it shouldn't matter whether or not that's being done with BuzzFeed style article headlines or inflammatory articles on a social issue. You should simply wash your hands of it if it offends you so much, but the charge of collusion doesn't stick because of the one time they did it in support of someone you don't agree with. It's just business. If the charge is that Patreon campaigns are getting fed a lot of money by people insincerely arguing for a social issue, then I want to see the receipts. Who is making how much and how has it increased since coverage of harassment of women began? What I'm not seeing is the required legwork to expose this alleged collusion beyond a lot of foolish A Beautiful Mind graphs drawn in MSPaint. 'They're friends, look at who they follow on Twitter!' is weak shit.

[quannum]

you're asking for the very proof that you're dismissing and attempting to minimize. you can look for the receipts yourself.

did you gloss over the IGF stuff? and the FYC stuff? all just a couple friends on twitter doing things friends do i guess and totally not collusion.

[Correction]

It's proven extremely difficult to separate actual evidence of an inappropriate relationship between the enthusiast press and the industry it covers from the irrelevant flood of fedora-tipping anti-feminist InternetAristocrat muckraking, so yeah could you repost it? I say imgur collages are unconvincing because they're not really analysis as much as a lot of cherry picked line-drawing indicative of nothing.

[hey]

Not bait if he actually believes this stuff. I don't really take a fictional brothel that you apparently have to go into for something (didn't play the game) in which fictional sexual acts occur with fictional women, who along with the fictional patrons and other fictional non-prostitute employees form an living environment in a videogame, to be outrageous misogyny. You could make make an argument for poor taste or something if the brothel was completely unnecessary, but that's about it. Someone who actually played the game could chime in on that if they want. Or don't. It's really not a big deal.

I think you're missing the point. It doesn't matter if it's fictional. The people who came up with the idea are not fictional. What happens in the game isn't the problem. The problem is how it ended up in the game in the first place. Someone thought it made sense, and it would improve the experience of the players. That's the problem. If it were an occasional thing some game makers did, then it would be one thing, but it's not. This kind of stuff is very common. That is the problem.

[Meresgi]

I think you're missing the point. It doesn't matter if it's fictional. The people who came up with the idea are not fictional. What happens in the game isn't the problem. The problem is how it ended up in the game in the first place. Someone thought it made sense, and it would improve the experience of the players. That's the problem. If it were an occasional thing some game makers did, then it would be one thing, but it's not. This kind of stuff is very common. That is the problem.

Feel like i'm misreading this. Are you saying it's a problem it was put INTO the game because of someone deciding it made sense to include a brothel, or that it's a problem that people are getting pissed off about it not understanding it was a decision made by someone? Putting a brothel, stripclub, or whatever into a game is fine if it makes sense. If it's a world like Dishonored and you have a sleezy sex parlor where people get off on all sorts of shit (like electric torture) then of course toss it in. Or if there's a real reason to go there for the main character. To just toss it in because "lets add some tits and then use pictures of it as promo art for our game" then it's stupid as fuck. It all depends on the game, it is overused a lot nowadays but for some games it works, others it does not. You can't make a blanket statement though.

[hey]

Feel like i'm misreading this. Are you saying it's a problem it was put INTO the game because of someone deciding it made sense to include a brothel, or that it's a problem that people are getting pissed off about it not understanding it was a decision made by someone? Putting a brothel, stripclub, or whatever into a game is fine if it makes sense. If it's a world like Dishonored and you have a sleezy sex parlor where people get off on all sorts of shit (like electric torture) then of course toss it in. Or if there's a real reason to go there for the main character. To just toss it in because "lets add some tits and then use pictures of it as promo art for our game" then it's stupid as fuck. It all depends on the game, it is overused a lot nowadays but for some games it works, others it does not. You can't make a blanket statement though.

Yes, sorry, i meant to say what you just said. Sometimes it does indeed belong, and that's fine. But quite often it doesn't.

[Edelweiss]

I think you're missing the point. It doesn't matter if it's fictional. The people who came up with the idea are not fictional. What happens in the game isn't the problem. The problem is how it ended up in the game in the first place. Someone thought it made sense, and it would improve the experience of the players. That's the problem. If it were an occasional thing some game makers did, then it would be one thing, but it's not. This kind of stuff is very common. That is the problem.

What was the point? Brothels are bad because it reinforces the idea that women are sexual objects or mere decorations (skeptical of this)? Would it be less evil if the people who put it in the game made it so there was men in their place, since men have power? And how do you demonstrate that it didn't enrich the experience? No one has actually said that it did or did not yet. I never played Bioshock 2, so maybe you can enlighten me in regards to this brothel they're talking about.

The appropriateness or tastefulness is frankly subject to personal biases (and it's quite obvious where your stance on this is). I don't see the inclusion of a brothel in a video game as a problem, much less a common problem at that. I'm even less inclined to see it as a problem because this takes place in the realm of fiction. Again, this seems to just come down to differing viewpoints; I find any arguments for harm caused by their decision(s) to include a brothel (or any similar sexual establishment) to be silly.

Edit: Apparently an earlier edit cut off the part about if it fits, then it's fine, from an earlier post. I disagree that it's not often forced, but maybe we're playing different games/genres where it makes more or less sense within a story or setting.

[Meresgi]

Who has played Bioshock 2 and can actually say what the purpose of the brothel was? I didn't bother because from what I know, Bioshock 2 was really bleh, and I ended up skipping and not not bothering to go back.

As far as strip clubs I can understand being in games:

GTA series, Dishonored, Games like Witcher/Mass effect.

I would say Hitman's was so-so, I mean there was a purpose to why you were there, and it made some sense but obviously could have been replaced. At least it still made sense though.

[Quicklet]

Again, she takes what could be a good argument about laziness / poor storytelling in game design and some of the results of the AAA game industry trying to emulate the Hollywood movie industry, and instead she turns it into a blanket statement about many more games than it validly applies to.

A lot of her argument hinges on whether you believe video games somehow normalize real violence/misogyny, and if that argument doesn't hold, the rest of her argument crumbles (though that isn't necessarily the only way her argument is flawed). I think it's a stretch to say that, say, seeing a video game character's throat slit is going to desensitize you to seeing someone get beheaded for real, just like I think it's a stretch to say that a violent, sexualized aspect of a video game "trains" someone to act that way in reality. We have WAY more powerful cultural signals than video games. Video games are only a reflection of the broader culture.

She cloaks herself in a very real issue but perverts it to further her own personal agenda. Sexism is real, misogyny is real, crazy people who send death threats are real. It is not the majority like she claims it is though. There are a whole lot of reasonable people who want no part of this discussion because, frankly, there is no discussion. It is one group of people shouting at another group of people and it is very sad that it is garnering as much attention as it is.

[Edelweiss]

There are a whole lot of reasonable people who want no part of this discussion because, frankly, there is no discussion. It is one group of people shouting at another group of people and it is very sad that it is garnering as much attention as it is.

Not a post I make goes by that I don't find myself asking myself why the fuck do I keep coming back to this thread, as it has accomplished nothing other than maybe making people smugly believe themselves correct and that i'm a bigot or misogynist or something.

[Kohan]

Not a post I make goes by that I don't find myself asking myself why the fuck do I keep coming back to this thread, as it has accomplished nothing other than maybe making people smugly believe themselves correct and that i'm a bigot or misogynist or something.

Anyone sensible is going to agree with the post that Qal made earlier. Anyone else doesn't matter.

[Correction]

Not a post I make goes by that I don't find myself asking myself why the fuck do I keep coming back to this thread, as it has accomplished nothing other than maybe making people smugly believe themselves correct and that i'm a bigot or misogynist or something.

I'd probably say it has something to do with literally trading sex for favortism

Repeats untrue slut-shaming rumor, doesn't want to look like a misogynist.

ok.

[Edelweiss]

Well, at least you have that smugness down.

[Koul]

How is what he said slut shaming?

[Vixy]

He's been SRS-tier since forever. Always baiting. Not even worth responding.

[Charismatic]

This video is fantastic.
I love how he used Anita's words and cherry picked examples just like she would. If Joss Whedon ever sees this and doesn't feel like a moron then he definitely is one.

He's been SRS-tier since forever. Always baiting. Not even worth responding.

Also correct.
I didn't even bother to read what he wrote.

[Tarage]

Wait... let me understand this. People are upset about a brothel being in Bioshock 2?

As in, a game set in a time where brothels were a thing. Are we seriously trying to say that they should have whitewashed history for the sake of political correctness?

Are we going to get upset about the fact that Bioshock Infinite had racists?

[Priran]

Are we going to get upset about the fact that Bioshock Infinite had racists?

been there done that

[Tarage]

Your sig is my reaction.

[Correction]

How is what he said slut shaming?

The rumors that she slept around for favorable press are widely discredited. Bringing it up after that fact is really about 'how dare she have sex with someone other than her boyfriend, clearly her low moral character undermines her self-identification as a feminist,' a classic slut-shaming personal attack.