Feminism Thread

[Correction]

My mistake: It was an article on Kotaku that he got paid to write, but the contents came down to it being an opinionated blog post. Nothing wrong with telling people your friend who you wanna bang is great, but it's shady when there's money exchanged and your tumblr post goes up on the front page of a "news" website. That's the issue.

However, journalists do have an obligation to their viewers to have integrity.

I urge you to read the column I just posted. It addresses a lot of the calls for objectivity in the enthusiast press, and why, in a lot of cases, the same standards of disconnected objectivity that exist for establishments like the AP or Reuters don't really apply. The cozy relationship between gaming bloggers and the subjects they cover is the price of the access they receive. There are many times when this relationship crosses ethical boundaries, and it should be called out and discussed, but expecting identical boundaries around the enthusiast press and the New York Times is unrealistic. Hard gaming news barely exists anywhere because the demand for it is extremely thin, I'm very skeptical that #gamergate in its current incarnation is a sincere attempt to reshape existing consumer habits and demand more hard-news-only coverage.

Giving a game a positive review for sex is not it.

Reading is fundamental

[Callisto]

Yeah, but it calls into question your ability to do your work when you like a game, not because you like the game, but you like the dev that fucked you.

Do not get me wrong, I do not agree whatsoever that the attention should be on Quinn. She can fuck whoever, and while I personally think she's a shithead for cheating, her faithfulness is not an obligation she owes me.

However, journalists do have an obligation to their viewers to have integrity. Giving a game a positive review for sex is not it. It doesn't matter if it is an opinion. It's an opinion he is paid to have, and that payment is done on the assumption that he's giving it based on the merits of the game itself.

Basically people are flipping out about a conflict of interest, in an industry whose very business model is built inherently upon conflicts of interest. I could care fuck all about Zoe Quinn, I think she's a shitty person who also used the pants-shitting reactions of neckbeard kids to shield herself from scrutiny of her actions that deserved it; but that is entirely separate from the fact that I am stumped at this supposed outrage about 'journalistic integrity' regarding an industry that at its core shouldn't have people saying they expect it to have any with a straight face, and why it didn't come sooner if it's such a big issue.

[Ksandra]

I urge you to read the column I just posted. It addresses a lot of the calls for objectivity in the enthusiast press, and why, in a lot of cases, the same standards of disconnected objectivity that exist for establishments like the AP or Reuters don't really apply. The cozy relationship between gaming bloggers and the subjects they cover is the price of the access they receive. There are many times when this relationship crosses ethical boundaries, and it should be called out and discussed, but expecting identical boundaries around the enthusiast press and the New York Times is unrealistic. Hard gaming news barely exists anywhere because the demand for it is extremely thin, I'm very skeptical that #gamergate in its current incarnation is a sincere attempt to reshape existing consumer habits and demand more hard-news-only coverage.


Reading is fundamental

You are trying to white knight so hard you aren't even paying attention anymore. I don't expect kotaku to be the NYT. I do expect them to not have sex with devs for positive reviews.

And hey guess what? That column fucking agrees with me:

" but I think we can all agree that, at the very least, reviews should be relatively unbiased by the author’s relationship to the people or companies whose games they review."

[Ksandra]

and why it didn't come sooner if it's such a big issue.

I have no idea if any other sex with devs thing has come to light before this. Maybe it's simply the nature of the fact her bf told everyone.

[Lyall]

For my money, I don't give a shit about Depression Quest, or the developer. My ire is with the IGF clusterfuck, the incestuous relationship between Quinn's PR manager and the guy who runs the IGF, and how cozy all of their patreon coverage is.

These things came up, and nobody wanted to write that story or look into it. Jenn Frank wrote an article decrying Quinn's harassment (which is fair, honestly, but she didn't do it on a blog, she did it as a paid article on the Guardian) WHILE SHE WAS SUPPORTING QUINN ON PATREON. They're friends. It's impossible for her article, no matter how well sourced or written, to mean anything other than "Stop picking on my friend."

But nobody wants to tell that story, or look into it. Instead, "Gamers" are dead and we're all misogynists. Seems about right. Despite many people saying "It isn't about Zoe Quinn," all the articles want to make it about Zoe Quinn. Her name is involved because she seems to be the center of the connections, but her role isn't (shouldn't be, rather) anything besides the smoking gun. She is the straw that broke the camel's back and brought a lot of this ugliness into light.

[Koul]

When they say integrity, they mean keep it about the games. It's something that, I feel, has been bubbling for a while now and the Zoe Quinn thing was just the tipping point. People are tired of Anita and her nagging critiques and all the type of stuff. Making videos whose sole intent is to read into every single fine detail for sexism is bullshit. Then to tell people who enjoy said games or create those games that they're sexist racist misogynistic pigs is kind of reaching. They're tired of gaming websites having the bulk of articles be like "GTA 5 is horrible trash that only mouth-breather rapists would play" or a bullshit rating system for reviewing games that take points off if you have free-reign on who you can kill or add points because the story is about a lesbian.

Do I think more woman should get involved? Yeah, I do. I don't think people have a problem with that. The way to get more woman into the gaming industry isn't solely on the shoes of the industry though. A childs upbringing can have a huge impact on what her interests become when she's older. If a little boy enjoys video games it's seen as acceptable but if a little girl enjoys them just as much it's not seen as "feminine" and that's not the gaming industries fault. Woman also tend to be more empathetic than men so when they go around a strip club and see a bunch of murdered woman they're probably going to absorb the misery of the situation more than a man who just focuses on the bad guy.

Also, the main thing that I'm still pissed about is that Game Jam that got crapped on by Zoe, thankfully, it's picking up steam and is moving along. That's why I don't like her at all. And before you tell me there's no proof with her involvement you can research it yourself before making a comment on it because you don't know what you're talking about. And the fact that said Game Jam whose sole existence is to help underrepresented groups get into gaming has had MINIMAL coverage in the media is astounding. You would think kotaku and whatever else would eat it up considering how much they bitch about "not enough women!"

[Not Kuno]

[Tarage]

So just because something has been shit for a long time, we shouldn't get up in arms when yet another example of the same shit happens?

Gosh, better call Ferguson and tell them "It's okay, black kids get shot all the time. After all, it's a society built on racism."

[Ezek]

I didn't even know Maddox was still around. I remember reading his website way back in the early 2000's, good to see he's still (kind of?) active.

edit: speaking of which, he also wrote about this on his website.

[Callisto]

So just because something has been shit for a long time, we shouldn't get up in arms when yet another example of the same shit happens?

Gosh, better call Ferguson and tell them "It's okay, black kids get shot all the time. After all, it's a society built on racism."

Your analogy would assume the acceptance that the police's ability to shoot unarmed people on their whims was integral to the existence of police forces, aside from the equivalency between people being murdered and people reading opinion pieces that aren't also somehow purely objective, but hey.

In order to actually exist, game journalism requires revenue. The majority of this revenue comes from game companies' advertising dollars. This has pretty much always been this way. The entire industry is based on this conflict of interest, even in its purest state. I'm not saying this isn't doesn't suck, but as a consumer of their product you're either accepting this fact heading in, or you're naive I guess.

My point was why through two decades of this being the case, did people wait until this specific instance to act like they care? And how would one propose to remove subjectivity created by conflicts of interest from the industry, if that is specifically the thing that sustains the industry?

[Correction]

I do expect them to not have sex with devs for positive reviews.

You regurgitated the accusation that women are sleeping with reviewers for better scores. That has not happened.

I'm not disagreeing in principle that the enthusiast press is a biased source of information that is often writing about people they consider friends.

Once again, reading is fundamental.

[Charismatic]

My point was why through two decades of this being the case, did people wait until this specific instance to act like they care?

I keep wondering why you keep asking this question and why it even matters.
We cleared up most of this in chat but this question just bugs the shit out of me and seems like it has less of a point than anything else in this thread.

[Callisto]

Fine disregard that if you feel like, what about the second question?

add: As we discussed I don't think it's lacking in a point, the point being that if one is to willingly sign up to ingest media that is forced to have a bias to be a sustainable business, how can they then say EXCEPT THAT ONE, DON'T BE BIASED THERE. To me it seems like those would be mutually exclusive.

[Tarage]

Can we agree that games journalism didn't congeal out of thin air and was born from other forms of journalism?

Do you find this level of corruption in movie reviews? Or book reviews? I don't see Transformers 4 getting many 10/10s.

[Ksandra]

You regurgitated the accusation that women are sleeping with reviewers for better scores. That has not happened.

So you believe, I do not.

I'm not disagreeing in principle that the enthusiast press is a biased source of information that is often writing about people they consider friends.

Then you have no reason to attack me on that, which is what I said earlier.

[Correction]

Do you find this level of corruption in movie reviews? Or book reviews? I don't see Transformers 4 getting many 10/10s.

It's happened for film reviews.

Not sure about book reviews, that's a much smaller world. Based on a casual search, I guess it's happened? I haven't researched this very deeply.

Then you have no reason to attack me on that, which is what I said earlier.

That wasn't my intent since I assumed we at least agreed on that basic point.

[Teryu]

I think people are mixing up the Depression quest review with the fact that the Nathan guy kept plugging Depression Quest in almost every article he wrote even when it had nothing to do with the topic.

[NynJa]

That has not happened..

Bill clinton said Lewinski never gave him a beej
OJ said he never killed anna nicole smith
McGuire and Sosa said theyve never taken roids

E T fucking C

[Correction]

I think people are mixing up the Depression quest review with the fact that the Nathan guy kept plugging Depression Quest in almost every article he wrote even when it had nothing to do with the topic.

http://kotaku.com/tag/depression-quest
http://nathangrayson.kinja.com/

citation needed

Bill clinton said Lewinski never gave him a beej
OJ said he never killed anna nicole smith
McGuire and Sosa said theyve never taken roids

E T fucking C

Yes let's start with the stupid comparisons to a president abusing his power over an intern, murder and taking PEDs.
The alleged review simply doesn't exist and never existed, and the lone column specifically written about Zoe Quinn does not really seem to cross any ethical lines unless you can spell them out.
I don't know how this could be any clearer unless you need it written out in French.

[Meresgi]

Can we agree that games journalism didn't congeal out of thin air and was born from other forms of journalism?

Do you find this level of corruption in movie reviews? Or book reviews? I don't see Transformers 4 getting many 10/10s.

You only sleep with Michael Bay to get INTO the movie, not for reviews.