Police Shoot Protesters and Children

[Melena]

Anything can be lethal. Hell I could kill my wife by tossing the tv remote at her if she misses and it catches her right in the head. Classification Hey is based on what the weapons design for. Your canon analogy fails cause canon's are designed to destroy/kill. A taser or bean bag gun is designed to incapacitate and stun, not kill but there is always a chance. Would you rather they go back to the 70's and 80's where you just got an old fashioned beating with a baton instead?

[NynJa]

Anything can be lethal. Hell I could kill my wife by tossing the tv remote at her if she misses and it catches her right in the head. Classification Hey is based on what the weapons design for. Your canon analogy fails cause canon's are designed to destroy/kill. A taser or bean bag gun is designed to incapacitate and stun, not kill but there is always a chance. Would you rather they go back to the 70's and 80's where you just got an old fashioned beating with a baton instead?

Hey's just trying to make himself look like an internet badass troll, but in actuality he's making himself look like a fucking clueless moron. He's not even trying to discuss anything now, the fact he claimed "fatal and lethal arent the same", when the dictionary's definition of lethal is "fatal", then saying "its still not the same" shows hes just flat out trying to troll.

I can be a dick sometimes, but even in my most glorious days I wouldnt say "well the dictionary is wrong".

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

Your canon analogy fails cause canon's are designed to destroy/kill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_(fiction)

In fiction, canon is the conceptual material accepted as "official" in a fictional universe's fan base. It is often contrasted with, or used as the basis for, works of fan fiction, which are not considered canonical. It is used in two slightly different meanings: first, "it refers to the overall set of storylines, premises, settings, and characters offered by the source media text".[1] In this sense, canon is "the original work from which the fan fiction author borrows,"[2] or "the original media on which the fan fictions are based."[3] Secondly, it is used "as a descriptor of specific incidents, relationships, or story arcs that take place within the overall canon"; thus certain incidents or relationships may be described as being canon or not.

[Rhyis.]

Alice Cooper and the Muppets seem like the weirdest combo ever.

[Melena]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_(fiction)

teach me to be in a hurry and post at work.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

Yeah must be tough to post in poopdeck and take drive-thru orders my bad

[Melena]

If by take drive thru orders you mean work on Urban Shield stuff for ACSO yea, your right

[hey]

Anything can be lethal. Hell I could kill my wife by tossing the tv remote at her if she misses and it catches her right in the head. Classification Hey is based on what the weapons design for. Your canon analogy fails cause canon's are designed to destroy/kill. A taser or bean bag gun is designed to incapacitate and stun, not kill but there is always a chance. Would you rather they go back to the 70's and 80's where you just got an old fashioned beating with a baton instead?

If people were killed by tv remotes on a semi regular basis, you might have a point.

Hey's just trying to make himself look like an internet badass troll, but in actuality he's making himself look like a fucking clueless moron. He's not even trying to discuss anything now, the fact he claimed "fatal and lethal arent the same", when the dictionary's definition of lethal is "fatal", then saying "its still not the same" shows hes just flat out trying to troll.

I can be a dick sometimes, but even in my most glorious days I wouldnt say "well the dictionary is wrong".

The problem with dictionaries is that they intentionally give extremely simple definitions. They do not make any attempt to explain subtle nuances. That isn't the point of a dictionary. Dictionaries are great if you don't understand what a word means at all, but if you do, and are trying to ascertain exactly what is meant by it, then a dictionary is a terrible place to look.

There is not a big difference between the words fatal and lethal. 90% of the time, they are used to mean exactly the same thing, and can be used interchangeably. However, sometimes they cannot be. No dictionary will ever allow you to determine that two words with such similar meanings and usages are not identical words.

[miokomioko]

on a semi regular basis

What does this mean?

[BaneTheBrawler]

subtle nuisances.

in a post about semantics. lawl

[hey]

I can't spell, and then clicked the first option spell check gave me, get over it.

[BaneTheBrawler]

yes. but you did it in a post about semantics, which makes it amusing.

[NynJa]

If people were killed by tv remotes on a semi regular basis, you might have a point.

The problem with dictionaries is that they intentionally give extremely simple definitions. They do not make any attempt to explain subtle nuances. That isn't the point of a dictionary. Dictionaries are great if you don't understand what a word means at all, but if you do, and are trying to ascertain exactly what is meant by it, then a dictionary is a terrible place to look.

There is not a big difference between the words fatal and lethal. 90% of the time, they are used to mean exactly the same thing, and can be used interchangeably. However, sometimes they cannot be. No dictionary will ever allow you to determine that two words with such similar meanings and usages are not identical words.

Ok pchan math

[hey]

Well like i said, it's understandable that someone who isn't a native english speaker wouldn't understand the difference. I don't fault you for that.

[Pirian]

Hey, you've never read the Oxford dictionary, have you? And I'm not talking about the online version. I'm not going to disagree with you in regards to most dictionaries, but if you ever truly want to know words, read that thing. Not only will you get a complete history of how the word came to be, but you'll also get context out the ass.

http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-English.../dp/0198611862

The key feature of the OED, of course, is its unique historical focus. Accompanying each definition is a chronologically arranged group of quotations that illustrate the evolution of meaning from the word's first recorded usage and show the contexts in which it can be used.

[NynJa]

Except i am native english...not everyone born in quebec is 100% french, sorry to burst your bubble

[hey]

Except i am native english...not everyone born in quebec is 100% french, sorry to burst your bubble

But french is obviously your main language.

That's kind of sad though if you're a native english speaker, and don't understand the difference between lethal and fatal.

Hey, you've never read the Oxford dictionary, have you? And I'm not talking about the online version. I'm not going to disagree with you in regards to most dictionaries, but if you ever truly want to know words, read that thing. Not only will you get a complete history of how the word came to be, but you'll also get context out the ass.

While that sounds really awesome, i can't imagine it going into nearly as much depth as it could in as little as 20 volumes. Unless there's a 500 volume edition?

[Pirian]

I mean, I can only say that it does, lol. Almost all colleges have it if you want to see for yourself, but I'll also say that the 3rd edition due out sometime this decade is said to be 40+ editions

[Nephlite]

I would like to point out that there are no documented cases that a Taser has killed a person. It may contribute to death, but it has never been named as the direct cause of any death ever when they are deployed. Most articles and media say that a Taser killed someone without any scientific proof. 75% of the deaths as a "result" of Taser use was actually a new term being used called "Excited Delirium", or pre-existing conditions that were outside of the officers control. A guy was shocked while he was having a seizure and the electronic stimulation contributed to the guys lack of breathing and he died (although, the examiner stated the Taser killed him, in the end it was revealed he would have died anyways). Excited Delirium is basically when a person is so worked up, (because of drugs, alcohol, extreme SNS activations, and various medical conditions) that their bodies are unable to process the toxins and acids that are produced within their body from high stress incidents and they die from poisoning or their hearts just give out. I'm grouping in-custody deaths here as well as negligence because those are huge killers of people as well. Not seeking medical attention on someone who got Tasered is a huge no-no as well as throwing him in the wagon without fresh air and a chance to move his legs/head around to shake off the effects.

Think of it as a person being on PCP. Person takes a hit, doesn't feel the effects, then they just go batshit insane. Super strength, super speed, unbeatable abilities, god-like feelings and an attraction to shiny objects. They don't realize it, but once they "come down", there's almost a 50% chance of their heart exploding from the sudden PNS backlash of their central nervous system bringing them back to homeostasis.

The remainder of the 24-24.999% of deaths come from someone being Tasered and being killed by something out of the officers control (i.e. Tasered and they fall hitting their heads on the ground and dying or getting hit near a street then getting hit by a car when they fall). The one documented case of a Taser death but still not the fault directly of the Taser was a guy popped directly in his pacemaker and the thing stopped working. But even then, it was found the pacemaker wasn't installed properly with a restart function and the thing was defective (probably for many years).

The science behind the Taser basically means that though it is high voltage, it doesn't operate on the same wavelength of say a defibrillator. While a defib machine may shock a patient at say 200 joules of energy or so, it uses a very low amount of voltage as to not damage the heart. It's not the volts that do the actual defib, it's the joules in the energy that deliver the shock to restart the heart. The energy that the heart uses (electrical impulses) are copied in to a defibrillator to deliver a slightly higher shock to stop the heart so it can reset itself and start working again.

In a Taser (just like stunguns that are made for civilians), the joules are MUCH lower and the output is severely reduced though the volts are CRANKED up to deliver more punch. The science behind that is the voltage can cause the central nervous system that controls the muscles in the extremities and torso area to shut down or spike, causing muscle impairment and even breathing difficulties. But it operates on a much different electrical system that controls the heart and brain. It's not designed to disrupt those operations because it doesn't work that way, will never work that way, and has not killed anyone that way. Hell, civilian stunguns can reach upwards of 250,000 volts of energy, but the dispersal pattern is much greater so it doesn't last nearly as long as a law enforcement grade Taser, and no one has died from one of those. Typical LE Tasers operate at around 50k volts and have safeguards in place to prevent things from happening, like spontaneous combustion of a subject or catching the guy on fire. It doesn't produce enough heat energy to create that type of response. The one case of that happening, the electrode on the Taser hit a guys Nitro patch on his chest and it caught fire.

And what the fuck about Pepper Spray? Pepper Spray CANNOT kill you. If you have an allergic reaction, you can die but the Pepper Spray didn't kill you. Your genetics did and I have never heard of a person having an allergic reaction to pepper spray that killed them. Even if you did die, it wouldn't be homicide because it was unintentional homicide. Asphyxiation, heart attacks, muscle constriction deaths, and (I love this one) Positional Asphyxia are NOT caused by Pepper Spray. Excited Delirium, pre-existing conditions (i.e. heart problems), negligence (officers and EMT's both), and non-related injuries (like getting sprayed, falling on the ground and cracking your skull on the pavement) are the major causes of death. It does not affect Asthma (no documented cases), does not poison you, and does not close your airways. It can inflame your airways, can cause vomiting (which can kill you if you're not properly cared for), can cause you to loose your fucking mind, but for the most part is harmless. It is generally derived from cayenne peppers with a small concentration (most LE brands use a .8% mix that goes up to 15 million SHU's) and the 99.2% of the rest is carrier (water and propellant, usually alcohol mix that evaporates as soon as it hits open air). What if anything inside pepper spray's ingredients says it can kill you?

Both Pepper Spray and Tasers as of right now are considered non-lethal force options for Law Enforcement because of the above reasons.

Mace on the other hand can kill you. It's a chemical agent that when mixed produces a burning sensation. The original formula (from Wiki) is: 1% phenacyl chloride (CN) in a solvent of 2-butanol, propylene glycol, cyclohexene, and dipropylene glycol methyl ether. Phenacyl Chloride can poison you and in high enough concentrations, can burn you to death. I believe FLETC has pretty much removed it's use from Law Enforcement because it's much more dangerous than pepper spray. Mace can also catch fire when paired with a Taser. Pepper Spray doesn't have such ingredients, is bio-degradable, and is non-flammable. Imagine being Tazed and Peppered at the same time...

Now Rubber Bullets, Pepper Balls, Cone Balls (pepper gel and fogger in a ball), Pingers (rubber balls in a flash bang that shoots hundreds of rubber balls out for crowd control), Flash Bangs, Concussion Grenades, Gravity Wells (electronic web dispersal grenades), and Water Hoses (... hoses that spray water) are considered "Less Lethal" but not "Non-Lethal". The reason being is those projectiles still transfer kinetic energy in to a target. That can kill you. Regardless of how safe or how much dispersal pattern is in the projectile, it still transfers energy in to a target. One wrong move, one inch below the target or too far up or that one soft spot and you're dead. Documented cases are few and far in between, but the science proves these devices "can" kill you. Hell you don't need to examine it. Common sense shows you get hit with something traveling at those speeds, you can die.

Anyways, tldr: Tasers and Pepper Spray (non-lethal) force options can't kill people. Mace, and Impact weapons/projectile weapons (less-lethal) force options can kill people.

[hey]

If i punch you, and you fall, hit your head and die, my punch still caused you to die.