Is/n't Tesla literally/figuratively crashing?

[Meresgi]

Anyway, do you tell anyone who can't afford luxuries to "work harder"?

Uh yeah? That's who it's a LUXURY and not a NECESSITY.

[archibaldcrane]

Archi, you're a dick. A massively bored dick, apparently, if you re-read the whole thread.

It was a nice relaxing saturday night read.

I never said "the fad will pass within 2 years", did I? I still hope it will, I still hope the working class isn't going to be fucked for the sake of cynical corporate interests again.

I have no idea how "the working class" is being "fucked" by "cynical corporate interests" regarding Tesla - I'm sure you're going to go on some rant about how government incentives for clean tech are not worth the taxpayer expense in the US - and while I appreciate how much you care about us from Belgium - how exactly is Belgium being fucked? Your EV incentives ran out in 2012 as best I can tell - before Tesla even delivered a car in the country. Needless to say the "fad" is hardly passing, it's only getting started.

And seriously, have people stopped caring about safety? I know I wouldn't buy a car that isn't even Euro-NCAP tested yet!
A company that refuses to test its cars for safety is ringing huge alarm bells in my head. Will they use the "quadricycle" cop-out, as have several deathtrap vendors?

Everyone else has already torn this ridiculousness to shreds, but remember that Tesla hasn't even been selling in Europe for 10 months yet, their first deliveries were in August of 2013. While I do not know for sure that Tesla has provided a car to EuroNCAP yet (remember, they are supply-restrained, not demand restrained) - you also don't know they haven't provided one. I don't know how quickly EuroNCAP turns cars around for safety testing, but here in the US it took at least 6 months between when the NHTSA got their Tesla to when they released the 5-star safety rating on it.

Your comments about "quadricycle" nonsense are hilarious - you must not know anything about quadricycle definitions if you think a 5000+ lb 7-seater car with more cargo room than a mid-sized SUV could possibly qualify for a category that contains vehicles like the Scion iQ and shit. You are so frothing at the mouth looking for anything to discredit Tesla that it clouds your already questionable judgement.

While the Model S got 5 stars in every category from NHTSA, it may not do quite as well when it is EuroNCAP tested, as they put a high priority (or at least give extra marks) on "active-safety" features like blind-spot monitoring and pre-crash automated braking (that Tesla doesn't have yet in their vehicles), as well as a more thorough whiplash test (that the Tesla may perform not as well on because it has fixed headrests, although the weight of the vehicle means it doesn't jerk as far or as fast as the same collision would on a lighter vehicle).

Anyway, you want to mine back for ridiculous quotes? I skimmed parts of the thread, try this one:

You know the chief reason why our gasoline is twice the price of yours? Taxes.
We tax gas orders of magnitude more than we tax electricity.
Now, I know you probably hate taxes, as do most right-wingers; I don't: lower taxes means less social security, underfunded education, underfunded emergency services (firemen are already complaining as-is),...

wait, ok, so you totally support higher prices on gasoline because of taxes eh? That's interesting, because earlier in this thread you said:

No. I've got little idea how the US' mass transit system is. The laughable part is that he thinks our trains are reliable and that cheap trains somehow make up for half-price gas.
I'd fucking rip the whole country's railways by hand if it meant half-price gas. I'd kill 30 puppies for half-price gas (and 30 more for fun).

You really seem to have 180'd on this whole "expensive gas is good!" argument. Does that mean you used to be a "right-winger" like you accuse me of being (lol)?

The last thing Europe needs is governments losing a hell of a lot of tax revenue.
Oh, sure, we could tax electricity the same as gas, but then:
1) Suddenly the savings in fuel costs start looking a lot more meagre; making the whole electric "car" proposition even less attractive than it currently is.
2) The people that can't afford rich-man's toys in the first place see their electricity bills rise anyway.
3) Electric heating starts looking a lot less attractive, so people switch (well, those that can afford to switch; others just freeze their asses off) to other, more polluting sources.
Working class thoroughly fucked, and the trees you love so much don't even gain anything in the balance.

This is more brain-dead mouth-frothing, clearly. If you wanted to recoup gas tax revenue via electric cars, the easiest ways would be increasing taxes on EV purchases or taxing EV drivers per mile or on their yearly registrations. Or you could find tax revenue in other places and enjoy the cleaner air from EVs and not punish those who drive them. Either way, there are options beyond "YOU MUST TAX EITHER GAS OR ELECTRICITY"

By the way, 2 years later, I'm still waiting for an electric "car" cheaper than a Polo Bluemotion over the whole ownership cycle (or even a simple Fiat Panda):

You're right, there still isn't one. Between the lack of EV incentives in Belgium and the fact that they sell ultra-economy 1-liter engine shitboxes like the base-level 47 mpg Polo there (0-60 like 5 seconds slower than a Nissan Leaf...wow), even the cheapest Leaf (23,990 euros) cannot eclipse those ultra-cheap cars (10,490 euros for a Polo) in ownership-cycle cost yet. At 100,000 miles at 47 mpg (2127 gallons) at 1.53 euros per liter, you're looking at 12,318 euros for 100k miles, putting the Polo just over 1000 euros below the Leaf's price, not factoring in the Leaf electricity. I'm not going to get into the cost of oil changes and engine tuneups - it's damn close but the Polo is going to be a bit cheaper over 100k miles still, especially since a brief internet search would lead me to believe that Belgium's electricity is crazy expensive - 28 cents per kwh? Jesus. Regardless, it's a ton closer than it was in 2012, when the cheapest EV was the iMiev for 35k euros.

328i: 38 050€ (base model)
6.4l/100km
Super 95 price: 1.513€/l
If owned for 200 000km, total price of the 328i: 38050+19366=57 416€

Model S: 66 675€ (base model)
Even if electricity was 100% free, even if the car didn't need a battery change (it will), even if you could somehow secure 0% interest rates and even extending to 200 000km (I think yours was 100 000 miles), the Model S is still ~16% more expensive.

Remember that when I ran these numbers, the 328i was cheaper in the US as well. But I was doing a price comparison of a 40kwh Model S, which they don't even sell in Europe. You were using a 60kwh Model S in your figures above. And the 3-series is a compact-luxury car - the Model S is between the 5-series and 7-series in size (wider than both, in-between the two in length, crushes both in cargo room and performance) - and if you re-ran your calculations for a 5-series you'd see the Model S is cheaper over your 200,000km.

Think that about does it.

[archibaldcrane]

Tesla's stock jumped nearly 9% today on the word that Nissan and BMW are looking to use some of Tesla's rapid battery charging protocols for their own cars, hopefully further expanding the supercharger network.

[Kohan]

And of course, if history is any indicator, companies like BMW and Nissan adopting technologies means that they are becoming mainstream. This has been the ebb and flow of all things automobile since well before all of us were born.

[kuronosan]

This is how the free market is supposed to work. Call me when U.S. car companies start doing it.

[Buffy]

This is how the free market is supposed to work. Call me when U.S. car companies start doing it.

You mean other than Tesla who released their patents and jump started the process?

[kuronosan]

I'm talking about other companies adapting their tech, yes.

[Roranora]

Why does it need to be a domestic make to be interesting, more significant, or what have you?

Genuinely curious -- I didn't really get that bit, kuro

Edit: Do you just find those makes/models more appealing? Like, take Toyota and dem japs making probably one of the most 'american' pickups in the Tundra in San Antonio. I'll admit I'm generally more flaccid about US makes than Japanese or European makes.

[Waraji]

Knowing the domestic line of car building, they'll take Tesla's tech and churn out some rather shitty looking/working production car that skips on details that Tesla excels in. Sell it for 20k a pop and call it a day. There's a reason Ford's line of EV's isn't in demand. All their EV's look like Prius's. There is nothing appealing or self-actualizing about driving a Nissan Leaf or Toyota Prius. Hopefully Tesla figures out a way for their economy line of cars to not look like a piece of shit.

[kuronosan]

Why does it need to be a domestic make to be interesting, more significant, or what have you?

Genuinely curious -- I didn't really get that bit, kuro

Edit: Do you just find those makes/models more appealing? Like, take Toyota and dem japs making probably one of the most 'american' pickups in the Tundra in San Antonio. I'll admit I'm generally more flaccid about US makes than Japanese or European makes.

Read what Waraji said. My comment is more about U.S. companies not adapting useful technology correctly, if at all. I own a Subaru, and hate Ford/Chevy with a passion.

Problem is companies here lobby far too much against electric technology for as long as they can because GAS.

[archibaldcrane]

The only EV Ford sells is the EV Focus, and it's simply a "compliance EV" (meaning that because California requires all large automakers to sell a miniscule number of zero-emission vehicles in order to do business in the state, some automakers make non-serious efforts to clear that tiny threshhold - the RAV4 EV, Chevy Spark EV, Honda Fit EV, and Fiat 500 EV are all considered to be in that category. Note that all are simply adapted gasoline models, not purpose-built for battery power like the Model S, Leaf or iMiEV.) http://m.green.autoblog.com/2012/05/...alifornia-com/

However, Ford's plugin hybrid "Energi" line has done decently - the CMax Energi and Fusion Energi.

[archibaldcrane]

But yeah, as far as pure EVs go, the Leaf and Model S are fully 80% of the US market right now. Other than the iMiEV, the only other non-compliance EVs on the horizon are the BMW i3 (if you get it without the gas generator) and the crossover Model X.

[Roranora]

Read what Waraji said. My comment is more about U.S. companies not adapting useful technology correctly, if at all. I own a Subaru, and hate Ford/Chevy with a passion.

Problem is companies here lobby far too much against electric technology for as long as they can because GAS.

I got ya.

I know some guys who would be like the dipshits who wouldn't buy a Tesla cause fires; they lust for a new Mustang or Camaro but own a Ford Fusion (which I think looks pretty decent currently) or an F-250 cause 'murica and all. No reason Fusion Energi (really?) couldn't be more on their radar, but EVs get all that hate. And yeah, it's not even a legit EV.

I didn't at all think think that was what you were meaning, I wanted to ask for more. And from Waraji's post, perhaps we'll be better off in a way with their complacency and stubbornness regarding EVs. '-';

[TummieGaruda]

I'd love a Tesla but the price is too steep for me. If these cars were around 45k range with the same performance and range, I'd buy on in a heartbeat since it would be close to the overall cost of a 30k gas engine car over a 10 year period at 15k miles a year.

[archibaldcrane]

It's just weird that there are only two types of EV-ranges. Compliance cars/MiEV/Leaf with 80-90ish mile ranges and 24kwh-ish batteries, and the Model S with 208 or 265 mile ranges and 60kwh/85kwh batteries. I'd be curious what a Leaf with double the battery size would cost - although they'd have to figure out where to put it, which is why the Model S design of building the battery as a structural element of the floor is so fucking genius (there's room for it there and it keeps the center of gravity supercar-low.)

[Roranora]

It's kinda weird we even have the two. Without an Elon Musk outlier, we'd only have the Leafs and the like.

I'm jelly of any and all who have felt that Model S handling.

[octopus]

Nissan Leaf 2016 (or 2017) is expected to have around 120-150 miles range:

https://autos.yahoo.com/news/nissan-...153221135.html

[kuronosan]

Shitty designers are shitty.

[Cantih]

- although they'd have to figure out where to put it, which is why the Model S design of building the battery as a structural element of the floor is so fucking genius (there's room for it there and it keeps the center of gravity supercar-low.)

There's an older Top Gear where they sent May to Japan, and one of the things they showed him was a car where pmuch all the business was a board of stuff at wheel level.
They even swapped the body of the car I think.

But I think it was a hydrogen concept... maybe? It was years back, can't remember the fine details.

[archibaldcrane]

Tesla calls it the "skateboard"

http://gm-volt.com/wp-content/upload...skateboard.jpg

The motor, power, steering (minus the steering wheel) its all there. Everything else is safety and comfort.