GW2 Random Class Discussion: Shiyo Knows Best edition

[Jakson]

I hope everyone realized how I was going for regardless and put irregardless instead.

!

[Kiarax]

I hope everyone realized how awful this entire post was. Didn't even touch on the incredibly obvious fact that Vitality becomes less beneficial the more you have irregardless of healing, and that once HP reaches a certain point that toughness becomes mathematically superior.

In terms of eHP, everyone should be stacking toughness once they reach that point. And only the lowest HP tiers need more than 1-2 pieces of gear to get there. Only exceptions being for situations of constant and considerable condition damage, which is a scenario I'm not even sure exists.

Yeah there is way too many factors to outright make blanket statements about which stat is best. You need to aim for a reasonable amount of HP to be able to take the hits from stupid burst skills that you can't be expected to avoid 100% of the time, but after that Toughness will more often than not come out on top. Especially in prolonged battles or if you have a lot of heals going on.

[Imitarate]

I'm really having trouble settling on a mesmer weapon that I like. Probably part of the problem is that I'm coming from a warrior as my first main; I don't want to use any weapon that can't easily wade into a huge group of enemies. I was fighting some skritt, and 3-4 of them were just demolishing me. I feel like clones and illusions are way too ephemeral; they're tied to one enemy, but I can only have 3 total. It doesn't scale up well. I destroy single targets, but once another monster or two comes in I have trouble. I've mostly been using sword/sword, sword/pistol, and greatsword, but I've tried staff and it doesn't seem to work any better for larger fights. Am I just approaching mesmer wrong?

[Meph]

I use GS all the time, except swap to sword/pistol if a mobs gets up in my grill, but I agree that clones suck. Maybe if they had some kind of 3s taunt when they spawn they would work a little better

[Imitarate]

I'm just astonished at what feels like a near-total lack of solid AoE damage options. Like, a couple of attacks bounce, but they're as likely to hit allies as enemies. Staff seems to offer the best at that, with Chaos Storm, but I'm going to try torch and focus again.

[Prothescar]

I hope everyone realized how awful this entire post was. Didn't even touch on the incredibly obvious fact that Vitality becomes less beneficial the more you have irregardless of healing, and that once HP reaches a certain point that toughness becomes mathematically superior.

In terms of eHP, everyone should be stacking toughness once they reach that point. And only the lowest HP tiers need more than 1-2 pieces of gear to get there. Only exceptions being for situations of constant and considerable condition damage, which is a scenario I'm not even sure exists.

Well no fucking shit guy, it even says at the bottom that the ideal setup is using both. T2 and T3 classes, however, benefit more from Vitality from base due to their inherently low EHP. Majority of the people who say they're "gearing defensively" stack nothing but Toughness, which is flat out retarded.

[Arcana]

Anyone know where the math for weapon suffixes are? i need to prove to some idiot that 30% chance does just mean a 30% chance and not omg 50k dps...

[Prothescar]

Depends on which rune(s) you're talking about. 50k DPS is a massive stretch but something like Air or Fire would be a pretty substantial boost compared to most other things for some or most classes. Think about it though is, rune of leeching will provide just ~1000 or so less average damage in exchange for the damage healing you, and rune of earth is almost double the damage over time of either fire or air. This is all assuming, however, proper specs and a 60% or higher critical hit rate.

[Dragir]

I'm really having trouble settling on mesmer weapons that I like ... I don't want to use any weapon that can't easily wade into a huge group of enemies. I was fighting some skritt, and 3-4 of them were just demolishing me. I feel like clones and illusions are way too ephemeral; they're tied to one enemy, but I can only have 3 total. It doesn't scale up well. I destroy single targets, but once another monster or two comes in I have trouble. I've mostly been using sword/sword, sword/pistol, and greatsword, but I've tried staff and it doesn't seem to work any better for larger fights. Am I just approaching mesmer wrong? I'm just astonished at what feels like a near-total lack of solid AoE damage options. Like, a couple of attacks bounce, but they're as likely to hit allies as enemies. Staff seems to offer the best at that, with Chaos Storm, but I'm going to try torch and focus again.

I can't get away from sword/focus and greatsword as my static combo. For dungeon 'boss' fights, or anywhere there's one target, I prefer sword/sword for the block/daze and a more defensive (swordsman evades) single-target phantasm.

Illusionary Wave (greatsword) and Temporal Curtain --> Into the Void (focus) provides all the crowd control I need. AOE damage comes from Phantasmal Berserker and Phantasmal Warden (the push/pull of wave/void helps to keep enemies near the warden).

Another source of AOE damage is shatters. Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration are both area damage ("nearby" targets). When you want a lot of rapid AOE damage, clone-generating skills like Mirror Images combined with those two shatters is one way to go... but I almost always keep Decoy, Blink or some kind of condition removal, and Signet of Illusions on my utility bar. My elite is irrelevant, sort of. I use the sylvari elite "Take Root" defensively (3 seconds of invulnerability), or offensively if there's no need for defense.

Hope that helped. I'm very comfortable playing mesmer in all situations with those weapons (though I do play around with duelist occasionally).

[Shiyo]

I hope everyone realized how awful this entire post was. Didn't even touch on the incredibly obvious fact that Vitality becomes less beneficial the more you have irregardless of healing, and that once HP reaches a certain point that toughness becomes mathematically superior.

In terms of eHP, everyone should be stacking toughness once they reach that point. And only the lowest HP tiers need more than 1-2 pieces of gear to get there. Only exceptions being for situations of constant and considerable condition damage, which is a scenario I'm not even sure exists.

Have you ever made a post where you don't act like you're better than everyone else? Jesus.

[Prothescar]

Sigil stuff, using the stats I used to test, the numbers are for relative comparison between sigils rather than an exact model of what you'll be getting out of them with your specific build and equipment setup. Since this is being done in Heart of the Mists it's harder to control individual stats without sacrificing too much of something else, it's also not taking into account food or whetstone/maintenence oil/stack sigil buffs:

Warrior 0/30/10/30

1,545 Power
2,090 Precision
360 Condition Damage
160 Healing Power

2,645 Attack
60% Critical Hit Rate
22% Critical Damage

Target: Medium Golem


Superior Sigil of Air: 30% chance to deal single target damage on a critical hit. 5s ICD.

With the above stats, the average damage of Lightning Strike over 100 procs was 965. Over 30 seconds of combat, assuming an average time per proc of about 8 seconds, you'd be looking at an average damage of 3,618 every 30 seconds of combat.



Superior Sigil of Fire: 30% chance to deal area of effect damage on a critical hit. 5s ICD.

With the above stats, the average damage of Fire Blast over 100 procs was 875. Over 30 seconds of combat, assuming an average time per proc of about 8 seconds, you'd be looking at an average damage of 3,281 every 30 seconds of combat per target affected.



Superior Sigil of Blood: 30% chance to steal life on a critical hit. 2s ICD.

With the above stats, this stole a static 469HP regardless of the target. Over 30 seconds of combat, assuming an average time per proc of about 5 seconds, you'd be looking at an average damage of 2,814 every 30 seconds of combat with an equal amount added to your HP pool. *Note: This test was done on various sparring partners because the effect cannot trigger unless you're missing HP.



Superior Sigil of Earth: 60% chance to cause a 5s bleed on ever critical hit. No ICD.

Assuming you have a 60% critical hit rate or higher, you'd be looking at a 36%~60% chance of causing the 5s bleed per hit. With the above stats, each bleed should do from 305 to 610 damage over 5 seconds depending on how many stacks you've accumulated. Due to the fact that I have no way of saying how many hits you'd be getting off in any timeframe, it's difficult to calculate this accurately (or indeed any, which is why I'm using averages). So let's assume that in 30 seconds you get off around 25 hits for a lower end sample and 50 for higher end. A Warrior wielding a greatsword is doing roughly 2 attacks per second with their autoattack, so these numbers should simulate a decent amount of misses due to a moving opponent or use of other skills.

25 * .36 = 9 procs
9 * 305 = 2745
9 * 610 = 5490

25 * .60 = 15 procs
15 * 305 = 4575
15 * 610 = 9150

50 * .36 = 18 procs
18 * 305 = 5490
18 * 610 = 10980

50 * .60 = 30 procs
30 * 305 = 9150
30 * 610 = 18300


Seeing as the rest of these Sigils have been tested at 60% crit rate, we'll only use those numbers for comparison. The rough average damage over time would be 6862 every 30 seconds of combat. It's worth noting that this sigil is greatly enhanced by traits that inflict extra bleeds or enhance the duration of bleeds.




Superior Sigil of Leeching: Next attack after weapon swap will steal some health. No ICD.

With the stats above, this stole a static 975HP regardless of the target. At the base 10 second weapon swap timer, you're looking at around 2,925HP stolen every 30 seconds of combat if you swap every 10 seconds and land the hit directly after every swap, which likely won't happen. More reasonably you'd be swapping every 12~15 seconds if you were looking to maximize damage and healing while finishing whatever you were doing with your previous weapon or avoiding a large attack. A more reasonable range would be 1,950~2,437. If you reduce your weapon swap timer through runes and/or traits, you could be looking at up to 2925~4178 every 30 seconds of combat. *Note: This test was done on various sparring partners because the effect cannot trigger unless you're missing HP.



Superior Sigil of Battle: Adds 3 stacks of Might for 20s every time you swap to the weapon holding this sigil during combat.

This one is largely variable on build and equipment, you could maintain as many as 9~12 stacks of might from this sigil or as little as 3 depending on your weapon swap cooldown, weapon swap conditions, might duration buffs, etc... you'd be looking at roughly 105 Power + Cond. Damage ~ 420 Power + Cond. Damage depending on the above factors, which would be at minimum a 5% or so direct increase in damage over time and a maximum of 40%. The upper end of that spectrum is unlikely, a more reasonable average increase would be between 15% and 25%. How much damage it adds in practice would be entirely reliant on your DPS from other factors and how much might you're getting... so it could be better than Air/Fire/Blood/Leeching, but I don't see it being better damage over time compared to Earth if traited for conditions.






All of these could be higher or lower damage over time in practice as these are only reasonable averages to compare sigil strength. Overall, Earth is the best for damage over time. The numbers, besides Blood and Leeching which are static values as far as I could tell, should obviously scale based on stats, however if your critical hit rate is so low that you're gaining next to nothing from the critical-based sigils, you'd probably be best off stacking extra sigils of battle or something. It would be entirely dependent on your build which sigils are better over time, as apparently Air and Fire scale particularly well with Power. I'd assume that Hydromancy is also a swap option for relatively heavy AoE damage and a good condition but I don't have the time to go look at it right now.

[Shiyo]

My preferred Sigil setup is Earth on my main DPS weapon with a Sigil of Battle and a Sigil of Leeching on my weapon swap set to take advantage of all three facets of the sigils in an optimal

Battle and leeching do not proc together(pretty much doubles their ICD) and sigil of earth screws with the ICD of leeching and battle.

Yep, just tested it again. Leeching, battle, and energy all do not work with on crit proc sigils. You have to wait ~2-3 seconds after on crit sigils proc for the weapon swaps to work with the on crit ones, so it's very inconsistent and annoying. Use if you want, but do know you aren't getting 100% of what you pay for ;p

[Prothescar]

Two swaps not stacking I didn't know about, however:

It would be entirely dependent on your build which sigils are better over time

For Warrior, which is what I was using to test and what I'd be using this configuration on, your ICD issue isnt much of a factor. I wasn't able to thoroughly replicate Hydromancy or Leeching being completely ineffective due to Earth with the build that I use. It's even less of an issue if you're using Blood, Air, or Fire since the probability of getting one of those procs within a second of swapping weapons is far lower.

[Prothescar]

Confirmed: Hydromancy is badass. AoE chill and around 900 damage as well. The damage appears to scale very well with power, similar to fire and air

[Arcana]

what about straight damage increases like force? does it out do any of the proc based sigils?

[Prothescar]

That would be entirely dependent on what damage you're already doing. If 5% of x is more than y, where x = your current damage output and y = the output of a sigil, then obviously x > y. I'd see most of the use of sigils in those circumstances being from utility, the heals or the chills. To be honest, I don't see Force beating a Sigil of Battle or two in any circumstances, but I'm not 100% sure off the top of my head. For Warrior, a combination of Arms traits and Superior Sigil of Earth probably outweighs most any other possible combination of sigils for signle target DPS, with Force, Battle, or Fire being for AoE, but again that's just a theory.

I'm probably going to experiment with Greatsword or Sword+sword + Rifle bleed build with 50% bleed duration and whatnot.

[Shiyo]

earth/fire are also better than force, and you should generally be using earth/fire on a 2h, or earth/fire/ + crit5% on 2 1h's. Weapon swap weapon being a stacking sigil like bloodlust is good too(and generally better than weapon swapping ones depending on your class)

For THF I like earth/(fire works too)/5% crit on my 1h's and perception on my 2nd swap weapon, shortbow. It's my AOE/trash weapon so I constantly get free crit stacks

For ele battle/5% crit(or 10% bleed duration) is the best combination ALWAYS, or just battle in staff.

[Prothescar]

Accuracy, Hydromancy, Battle, Earth, and Fire seem to be the only worthwhile damage Sigils. Blood and Leeching are a tossup depending on your setup for utility/healing. Specific condition duration sigils to complement others work too. Stacking sigils aren't applicable to these categories, they shouldn't be on weapons that you'd actually use.

[Dragir]

Just thought I should drop a note here reminding (or informing) everyone that you can equip one (and only one) type of "stacking" sigil like bloodlust, corruption, or perception (my preference) and un-equip the weapon with the stacking sigil without losing the stacks you've built.

It's a pain to rebuild it if you go down, though. Wish it weren't lost til defeated. Makes it hard to keep it on in dungeons in some places.

[Celeras]

Well no fucking shit guy, it even says at the bottom that the ideal setup is using both. T2 and T3 classes, however, benefit more from Vitality from base due to their inherently low EHP. Majority of the people who say they're "gearing defensively" stack nothing but Toughness, which is flat out retarded.

You flat out said that X classes should only stack Vitality if they were only going to use 1 of the 2 stats, which is an asinine conclusion based off your 100 vs 100 test. Yeah, the first 100 may favor Vit.. but the second hundred? The third? A full set of Vit is what, close to 1000? You made a conclusion off an irrelevant data set, passed it off as fact, and are dead wrong.