TPP - yet more internet shackling IP legislation.

[Cream Soda]

I don't think that people call piracy theft or stealing because they are stealing an object but rather stealing potential revenue away from the person who created the original content. In the end calling something theft or stealing is a lot more complicated than just how the words apply to physical objects. We are talking about intellectual property that doesn't necessarily live in a physical form.

Yes, and that has its own name, it's called piracy

[Plow]

They call it theft or stealing to make piracy seem worse than it is.

people try to define it as something different than theft or stealing to convince themselves they're not doing anything wrong

Redbox is insanely inconvenient, and Netflix doesn't have much of a selection for streaming.

a. yes, redbox, which has kiosks every other block and you can pick out what you want online and return it anywhere is SUPER inconvenient

I HAVE TO LEAVE MY HOUSE? OH THE HUMANITY

b. good thing there's a part of netflix where you can get pretty much any movie and you don't even have to get off your incredibly lazy ass

They call it theft or stealing to make piracy seem worse than it is.

people try to define it as something different than theft or stealing to convince themselves they're not doing anything wrong

Yes, and that has its own name, it's called piracy

sweet, why don't you go do it in somalia? I hear piracy is all the rage over there.

[archibaldcrane]

If you illegally download something (and don't distribute it) and it is something you would not have purchased in absence of a piracy option, it does not harm anyone.

So yeah, that's why it is different than stealing.

[Plow]

did you illegitimately gain possession of something you didn't own?

because that's what stealing is

steal

verb /stēl/ 
stealing, present participle; steals, 3rd person singular present; stole, past tense; stolen, past participle

Take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it

[archibaldcrane]

You didn't take it. You copied it. They still have theirs.

Do you know what piracy is?

[Cream Soda]

When my bike was stolen a few weeks ago, I'm pretty sure I couldn't use the thing anymore and had to have it replaced to be able to ride a bike again. Pretty clear difference if you ask me

[hey]

a. yes, redbox, which has kiosks every other block and you can pick out what you want online and return it anywhere is SUPER inconvenient

There are no redboxes within walking distance of me. Even to drive is like 15 minutes both ways (and 15 more to return it). That's pretty damn inconvenient, not to mention doubles the cost from gas.

I HAVE TO LEAVE MY HOUSE? OH THE HUMANITY

Yes? That's pretty damn inconvenient.

b. good thing there's a part of netflix where you can get pretty much any movie and you don't even have to get off your incredibly lazy ass

I guess, if you want to wait a couple of days, and pay extra for BDs.

people try to define it as something different than theft or stealing to convince themselves they're not doing anything wrong

Either that, or because they are completely different things.

Do you know what piracy is?

He obviously doesn't.

[hey]

did you illegitimately gain possession of something you didn't own?

because that's what stealing is

That definition does not say what you think it says. There is no taking.

[Plow]

That definition does not say what you think it says. There is no taking.

take (tk)
v. took (tk), tak·en (tkn), tak·ing, takes
v.tr.
1. To get into one's possession by force, skill, or artifice

and since I'm aware I'm talking to people that are severely lacking in the intelligence department

ar·ti·fice/ˈärtəfis/
Noun:
Clever or cunning devices or expedients

Are you guys seriously going to go all "that depends on what your definition of the word 'is' is?"


Anyway, you're just going to go all republican and do anything and everything possible to convince yourselves you're right no matter how provably wrong you are, so I'm not going to bother continuing.


But this shit IS your fault, rather you're willing to admit it to yourself or not.

[hey]

So according to those definitions, stealing would involve getting someone else's possession into your own possession. Guess what? That never happens through piracy. You acquire a completely different copy of it, which was never in the possession of anyone else (at least with internet piracy).

[Petitssk]

As an outspoken anti-pirate, I'm still having a hard time wrapping my mind around the fact that downloading is okay as long as I wouldn't have bought it in the first place. It's not just that it doesn't even begin to make any sense, as a paying customer I also feel like someone's pissing in my face whenever the money I pay allows pirates somewhere else to continue being parasites because they give producers surprisingly little an incentive to produce whatever it is they're producing, leaving the pool with paying customers as the only incentive.

I'm not going to say that piracy is all bad, but I sure as hell wouldn't say that I want it to continue in its current state. Too bad the bills in the making are a little too extreme as well.

[Cantih]

As an outspoken anti-pirate, I'm still having a hard time wrapping my mind around the fact that downloading is okay as long as I wouldn't have bought it in the first place.

The trouble is, once you hit this point, the discussion goes into pricing, quality, creator remuneration, personal situation (and OH GOD where it spreads from there) etc.
The whole shebang becomes unwieldy because of this huge web of shifting this and that on so many issues, and very few are used to working in that "everything is connected" space.

[hey]

as a paying customer I also feel like someone's pissing in my face whenever the money I pay allows pirates somewhere else to continue being parasites

This isn't an argument. If it makes you feel bad, too fucking bad.

because they give producers surprisingly little an incentive to produce whatever it is they're producing

Bullshit. Do you know what the best kind of advertising is, by far? Word of mouth. And what happens when people have free access to any number of movies, games, music, etc they want? They watch/listen/play a boatload of stuff they wouldn't have otherwise. And what do they do after enjoying said boatload of content? They recommend it to their friends, and family. Some of whom are going to go and buy it.

[zoobernut]

Does it make you feel any better if you call piracy counterfeiting? I guess that could be a more accurate description if you guys want to boil the whole thing down to a semantics argument. Which it seems like you want to do just to justify to yourselves that you are not doing anything wrong. Calling out a technicality in order to prove that piracy is not "stealing" really does nothing to refute the argument against piracy.

[hey]

Calling out a technicality in order to prove that piracy is not "stealing" really does nothing to refute the argument against piracy.

It's not supposed to. It's supposed to stop people from using loaded words. That's it.

Counterfeiting is closer, but still wrong, unless we're talking about buying fake dvds on the street. Counterfeit implies both that they aren't real (in general pirated content is identical to the original), and that it's going to be used to trick someone into thinking it's real. That doesn't happen.

[Petitssk]

This isn't an argument. If it makes you feel bad, too fucking bad.

Bullshit. Do you know what the best kind of advertising is, by far? Word of mouth. And what happens when people have free access to any number of movies, games, music, etc they want? They watch/listen/play a boatload of stuff they wouldn't have otherwise. And what do they do after enjoying said boatload of content? They recommend it to their friends, and family. Some of whom are going to go and buy it.

And you believe you're a white knight for spending your valuable time advertising products in exchange for free media? Yeah, right.
How producers go about their own advertising is their choice, who do you think gave you the right to take that right and exact it on your own terms, rewarding yourself in whichever way you please?

I agree that this is, in parts, not purely an economic problem, but it certainly is an ethical one. And as much as it sucks for the kids wanting free shit when there's rental stores and what not available (and the current bills would also suck for many others, non-pirates included, yes), going around claiming that producers everywhere should just 100% embrace piracy is ridiculous. It's their products you're pirating, why should they distribute them on your terms?

[zoobernut]

It's not supposed to. It's supposed to stop people from using loaded words. That's it.

Counterfeiting is closer, but still wrong, unless we're talking about buying fake dvds on the street. Counterfeit implies both that they aren't real (in general pirated content is identical to the original), and that it's going to be used to trick someone into thinking it's real. That doesn't happen.

It is a little disingenuous to say that. People buy counterfeit dvd's all the time that they know for a fact are fake from China or other places. They are still counterfeit.

The point is that you don't need to try to stop people from using loaded words, by trying so hard to stop people from using loaded words you are having the same effect on the argument that a loaded word would. You are clouding the issue and trying to circumvent discussing the real issue of what piracy is. No matter how you slice it piracy is damaging. Yes most of the time it is damaging to giant multi-million dollar companies that people have little sympathy for but more often than people realize it has a real strong negative impact on small time artists and game companies.

Piracy is a HUGE issue for photographers who are struggling to make ends meet. Their photos are constantly being misappropriated or pirated or whatever word you want to call it, and used for memes or put up on random websites without credit.

So please call it whatever you want, we can just stick to the word piracy but that doesn't make it any less wrong or damaging. If you are going to screw over others at least own up to it and be proud. Stop trying to act like it isn't a big deal because "I wasn't going to buy it anyway" or "It isn't stealing it's just copying"

Edit: To be perfectly clear I know it isn't a cut and dry issue. There are definitely certain situations where piracy is more damaging than others and in some cases piracy has actually shown to help increase revenue (helo music industry and in some cases games) It is definitely a complicated issue. It just pisses me off when people try to simplify it down by the whole stupid "It isn't stealing it is copying" argument or a semantics argument.

[hey]

And you believe you're a white knight for spending your valuable time advertising products in exchange for free media? Yeah, right.

No?

How producers go about their own advertising is their choice

Sure.

who do you think gave you the right to take that right

The first amendment.

rewarding yourself in whichever way you please?

I'm not rewarding myself for advertising for them. I'm going to pirate their shit anyway. Free advertising is their reward for not sucking.

why should they distribute them on your terms?

Because that's how business works. You do what your customers want, or they aren't going to be your customers.

but it certainly is an ethical one.

Yep, it sure is. And i will argue that copyright is a horrible thing, and is holding society back.

[Plow]

[Petitssk]

Various quotes

I'm not from America, but wasn't the First Amendment about freedom of speech etc.? I don't really see how that connects to disregarding other people's rights and providing their items for free.

Then again, I do remember a time when not agreeing with a producer's terms meant that you simply wouldn't buy their product. Guess it's cooler to insist on your own rights while disregarding those of others.

However, to avoid misunderstandings, I agree that copyright in its current form needs to be reconstructed, but certainly not on the terms the pirates want and certainly not on the terms the current bills would seem to imply. Quite frankly, it's bullshit that both sides have to insist on having their way, and only their way, preventing this from reaching any conclusion at all. I'm fully behind the producers as far as their rights being infracted is concerned, but that wrong can't be fixed by wronging others.