California Propositions 2012

[Demosthenes11]

that's so fucking dumb lol

[Melena]

32: Unless I'm reading this wrong, it forbids corporations and unions from donating to political candidates. If they funnel it through a SuperPAC that's a problem and a fundamental flaw of the law, but both groups are capable of doing that. When Super PACs are crushed (I hope this happens), then the law will have its intended consequences. I don't really see how it disproportionately affects one type of candidate. Are Unions less competent than corporations?

It completely removes unions the ability to deduct fee's from payroll checks, just like the Wisconsin laws that Walker pushed through. There is also a huge list of exemptions from this, all being big business. That and it's also backed by the Koch Brothers. Anything business related sponsored by them should just be an automatic no as it is.

Actually here's a line from the final version submitted to the supreme court to be on the ballot.

"Prohibits unions from using payroll-deducted funds for political purposes. Applies same use prohibition to payroll deductions, if any, by corporations or government contractors. Prohibits union and corporate contributions to candidates and their committees. Prohibits government contractor contributions to elected officers or their committees."

What this means is that unions effectively can no longer take money out of our paychecks. It would have to be a pass the hat kind of thing. Corporations like walmart and what not, when they make donations it's straight out of their profits, they don't have to do any sort of payroll deductions. I mean when is the last time a company went and told all the employees "Hey we are taking money out of your check to donate to our political choices". As is if you decline to be in a union, such as for example if I declined to have SEIU representation when I got hired by the Sheriff's office, i'd still have money taken out of my paycheck but instead it would be donated to a local charity instead. If people who work for a union company are that against the political donations of unions, they can opt out, have their fee's go to charity instead and then cry when they get fucked over and the unions tell them too bad.

Here is also a list of sponsors of the bill taken from ballotpedia.org http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.ph...ive_%282012%29

• The main campaign supporting the measure is YES on 32, Stop Special Interest Money Now!

The arguments in favor of Proposition 32 in the state's official voter guide were submitted by:

• Gloria Romero. Romero is the state director of Democrats for Education Reform. She is also a former California state senator.
• Gabriella Holt. Holt is the president of Citizens for California Reform.
• John Kabateck. Kabateck is the executive director of the California chapter of the National Federation of Independent Business.
• Marian Bergeson. Bergeson is a former California Secretary of Education.
• Jon Coupal. Coupal is the president of the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association.
• The Hon. John Arguelles. Arguelles is a retired justice of the California Supreme Court.

Other supporters include:

• Former U.S. Secretary of State George Shultz. He says, "This initiative gets to the heart of one of the most corrosive elements in politics: campaign contributions...For too long, special interest money has dominated our politics, muting the voice of average Californians."[8]

• Charles Munger, Jr.[1]

• Richard Riordan, a former mayor of Los Angeles.[9]

• The California Republican Party.[10]

And here is a list of donors in support of 32

American Future Fund $4,080,000
Charles Munger, Jr. $992,204
Thomas M. Siebel $500,000
William Bloomfield, Jr. $300,000
Larry Smith $260,701
Jerry Perenchio $250,000
Citizen Power Campaign $230,317
B. Wayne Hughes $200,000
William Oberndorf $150,000
Protect Prop 13 (HJTA) $125,000
Lincoln Club of Orange County $110,000
Robert J. Oster $101,000
Frank E. Baxter $100,000
Timothy C. Draper $100,000
William L. Edwards $100,000
Howard F. Ahmanson $50,000
Charles B. Johnson $50,000
Franklin P. Johnson, Jr. $50,000
Nicoletta Holdings Company $50,000
Richard J. Riordan $50,000
Steven A. Laub $50,000

[Cantih]

Labeling has been ruled as an interference to trade. The US has already won a labeling case against the EU in the WTO.

that's so fucking dumb lol

^
So the state could set what food products can be composed of (like vehicle performance) in order to disallow GMOs. But couldn't set labeling to allow people to choose for themselves.
For Fucks Sake

[Kuya]

You know, i'd really like a proposition system for Puerto Rico. If this thread is any indication, it seems to increase the amount of attention payed to politics. In fact, the discussion going on in this thread is worlds more advanced than the discussion in most threads on this subforum.

[Demosthenes11]

I like the system too. It gets the people actually involved in policy rather than vote for faces that turn around and fuck you

[Kerberoz]

Need a bill to restrict the term "non-organic" to food that is actually non-organic. Stop discriminating against silicon-based lifeforms.

[Ksandra]

You know, i'd really like a proposition system for Puerto Rico. If this thread is any indication, it seems to increase the amount of attention payed to politics. In fact, the discussion going on in this thread is worlds more advanced than the discussion in most threads on this subforum.

It's definitely an improvement. But sadly, I know too many (outside of bg) that don't take the initiative to look at it, and instead just vote over info they get from commercials. In the case of prop 8 there was a fuckton more money spent to vote yes rather than the opposition. And sadly, I think that was big in tipping the scales.

[archibaldcrane]

The proposition system is absolutely the worst thing a state could possibly implement. It is the single biggest reason California is in the red so badly. Direct democracy is bad and should feel bad.

[Cantih]

The proposition system is absolutely the worst thing a state could possibly implement. It is the single biggest reason California is in the red so badly. Direct democracy is bad and should feel bad.

I know astroturfed propositions are bad (and I know your opinion on prop 13, which is a different bag) and we do need a solution for them, but I just can't agree with you to throw the baby out with the bathwater by removing the initiative process.

[Kuya]

The proposition system is absolutely the worst thing a state could possibly implement. It is the single biggest reason California is in the red so badly. Direct democracy is bad and should feel bad.

I like it, because if a state makes a mistake with a proposition, they can only blame themselves and not on the tired old trope about politicians all being corrupt. I see the whole experiment as a double edged sword. You can get away with passing some pretty liberal stuff with it, but you can also get some seriously bad stuff. Either way, i want people to have more responsability in a democracy than just voting for a party every 4 years.

[Kerberoz]

Might be worthwhile if each proposition was a single issue instead of a package deal. As of now, you can't just buy a sammich off the dollar menu; you have to buy the combo with a side of deep-fried shitballs and a diet coke.

[Drex]

Relevant: California debt 6-10x larger than estimated by Governor Jerry Brown

$167billion-$335billion in debt and unfunded, irrevocable obligations. Also, what's wrong with California's drinking water?

Gov. Jerry Brown of California announced when he came into office last year that he had found an alarming $28 billion “wall of debt” looming over the state, which had to be dismantled.

Since then, he has slowed the issuance of municipal bonds, called for spending cuts and tried to persuade the state’s famously antitax voters to approve a tax increase this fall.

On Thursday, an independent group of fiscal experts said Mr. Brown’s efforts were all well and good, but in fact, the “wall of debt” was several times as big as the governor thought.

Directors of the State Budget Crisis Task Force said their researchers had found a lot of other debts that did not turn up in California’s official tally. Much of it involved irrevocable promises to provide pensions to public workers, health care for retirees, the cost of delayed highway maintenance and an estimated $40 billion bill to bring drinking water up to federal standards.

They also pointed out many of the same unpaid bills from previous years that the governor had brought to light, like $8 billion in delayed payments to schools and community colleges, and $250 million that was raided from a fund dedicated to transportation and treated as revenue.

The task force estimated that the burden of debt totaled at least $167 billion and as much as $335 billion. Its members warned that the off-the-books debts tended to grow over time, so that even if Mr. Brown should succeed in pushing through his tax increase, gaining an additional $50 billion over the next seven years, the wall of debt would still be there, casting its shadow over the state.

“With inadequate information, our legislators and citizens are flying blind,” said David Crane, a board member who issued the task force’s special report on California’s fiscal condition at a news conference in San Francisco on Thursday.

Mr. Crane, a former adviser to Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, was joined by the economist George P. Shultz, who served various administrations as secretary of treasury, labor and state.

A spokesman for Governor Brown did not dispute the report but said the governor was making progress in his effort to restore fiscal balance.

The task force was founded last year by Paul A. Volcker, a former Federal Reserve chairman, and Richard Ravitch, a former New York lieutenant governor. They said they were acting out of a deep concern for the fiscal affairs of the states, which they thought received insufficient attention in Washington.

The task force is conducting detailed analyses of a sample of six states. The others are Illinois, New York, Texas, Virginia and New Jersey.

California was of particular interest, not only because it constitutes the world’s ninth-largest economy, but because of its intractable fiscal problems. It has also experienced an unusual string of municipal bankruptcies in recent years. In one of them, the City of Stockton is proposing to walk away from virtually all the principal and interest on one of its bonds.

Analysts are watching the case closely, concerned that if Stockton succeeds, other troubled cities may follow. Some contend that the State of California should be doing more to keep its cities out of bankruptcy, and to shield municipal bond investors.

Task force members said their focus on California was not meant to suggest that the state’s general-obligation bonds were at risk. Mr. Crane said he believed California’s bonds were very safe, acknowledging that he owned some himself.

Governor Brown’s efforts to chip away at the debt have led Standard & Poor’s to say it is considering an upgrade of California’s bond rating, long one of the lowest among the states. But the report pointed out that S.& P.’s review of California’s creditworthiness took into account a ranking in the state Constitution that shows which debts and government programs must be paid ahead of everything else.

While a rating increase would mean that California’s bondholders were more secure, it would not necessarily mean more money for the programs that didn’t make it onto the seniority list. Nor would it reflect any particular improvement in the fiscal health of the cities, school districts and other local bodies of government, which fall lower in the pecking order than the state’s general-obligation bondholders.

[archibaldcrane]

I wish I could find the infographic comparing states with proposition systems and their budget deficits compared to those that don't. It was extremely stark.

[archibaldcrane]

Relevant: California debt 6-10x larger than estimated by Governor Jerry Brown

$167billion-$335billion in debt and unfunded, irrevocable obligations. Also, what's wrong with California's drinking water?

Everyone wants stuff, noone wants to pay for it. Yay referendum!

[archibaldcrane]

From 2009, but still a great read about how propositions have rendered California ungovernable:

http://www.economist.com/node/136490...RY_ID=13649050

This state desperately needs a constitutional convention, and man I can only imagine what kind of political clusterfuck that process would be.

[Cantih]

From 2009, but still a great read about how propositions have rendered California ungovernable:

http://www.economist.com/node/136490...RY_ID=13649050

This state desperately needs a constitutional convention, and man I can only imagine what kind of political clusterfuck that process would be.

Do note the article blames two things, the initiative system, AND gerrymandering/legislative makeup. And we may have solved the second now, so how about seeing if that works first. (Though yes, we do need to kill the 2/3 majority requirement, but that's as far as it should be taken.)

[archibaldcrane]

Pretty sure that gerrymandering and the 2/3rds system were both put into place in their current forms via proposition.

[thetruepandagod]

prop 36 all the way, shit is fucking ridiculous.

[Ayn]

..Man stuff like that is making me feel I really need to GTFO of this state.

[Buffy]

Do any of these propositions help to reduce the size of California's budget or make agencies more efficient? It doesn't look like it from the quicky summary on the first page. I thought California had the highest taxes in the country? I'm in Virginia, so no direct effect, but California has, in general, been an indication of political trends in the country for the last 20-30 years, so I'm curious.