California Propositions 2012

[Melena]

I personally wonder if you're still clinging to your "5% to 10% of welfare recipients abuse it" fantasy.

I'll admit I was probably exagerating those numbers, but it's just as silly to go about and think that no one is abusing it either. I've stated on record I don't know how many times, the vast majority of the people do use it for it's proper reason, as a safety net till they can get back on their feet, it's the few that abuse it that makes everyone else look like shit bags.

[BaneTheBrawler]

Well, if we end up having to add a star for Puerto Rico, why not just skip past 51 and toss in a few more eh?

Michigan's Upper Peninsula is one candidate. They've been discussing making it its own state for a while.

[Demosthenes11]

I'll admit I was probably exagerating those numbers, but it's just as silly to go about and think that no one is abusing it either. .

except literally nobody says this.

And businesses will still be in CA and nobody will leave. This happens every time, and CA always keeps the big businesses because it's the place to be. A business tax increase in CA has never been shown to have a negative effect on the economy

[Kohan]

So your facts are you and your family at one point were on welfare and didn't abuse it?

No.

While it is a fact, it is not a fact upon which anyone should base a decision that affects a multitude of people, much like your own stories. After all, they're anecdotes, not thoroughly-researched presentations of relevant data and the like.

As I mentioned in my first post on the subject, I rely upon more than just anecdotes, and I provided a post that collected various references. My own story would be as worthless as yours if I didn't have facts to back it up with. Fortunately, I do.

Here's the post I originally provided:

http://spritzophrenia.wordpress.com/...ud-in-the-usa/

And since we're already here, let's go a bit further:

http://www.junkland.net/2012/01/8-my...-debunked.html

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/23/politi...een/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_queen

[Tweek]

And businesses will still be in CA and nobody will leave. This happens every time, and CA always keeps the big businesses because it's the place to be. A business tax increase in CA has never been shown to have a negative effect on the economy

many businesses have relocated or removed offices from California over the past decade what are you talking about man? just google it. I can name some specific companies that left and family friends that had to relocate out of state but you all would just say it's anecdotal evidence right?

here's the first thing google pops up just for 2011
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/m...ies-texas.html

or 2010
http://jan.blog.ocregister.com/2011/...ood-bye/53594/

here is comcast taking 1000+ jobs out of CA (I know people that worked in some of those call centers)
http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfranci...bs-out-of.html


this doesn't even scratch the surface with companies moving their data centers from cali to places like vegas or further. Last I heard CA is about to have the highest income state tax and highest sales tax in the US, you don't think this will affect businesses?

[Kohan]

many businesses have relocated or removed offices from California over the past decade what are you talking about man? just google it. I can name some specific companies that left and family friends that had to relocate out of state but you all would just say it's anecdotal evidence right?

Aww, you're starting to use the word "anecdotal." That's cute. Would this be in reference to my shooting down the "welfare queen" myth that you supported recently? While I wasn't responding to you, I had a feeling you'd be a bit miffed that the facts weren't on your side.

here's the first thing google pops up just for 2011

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/m...ies-texas.html

The Orange County Register is well-known in this state for being the Fox News of California. Please, do try again.

Actually, I'll be nice, and I'll give you a freebie:

http://www.capinsider.com/jobs-are-n...ing-california

[Tweek]

Aww, you're starting to use the word "anecdotal." That's cute. Would this be in reference to my shooting down the "welfare queen" myth that you supported recently? While I wasn't responding to you, I had a feeling you'd be a bit miffed that the facts weren't on your side.



The Orange County Register is well-known in this state for being the Fox News of California. Please, do try again.

Actually, I'll be nice, and I'll give you a freebie:

http://www.capinsider.com/jobs-are-n...ing-california

oh so because you don't trust the source based on personal belief it means the companies have not left California? I have seen the offices close down with my own eyes tell me they haven't left and haven't moved data centers or closed call centers and moved them or have completely uprooted silicon valley based companies distribution and manufacturing that used to ship out of california and moved them to the south none of that stuff happened right?

[Demosthenes11]

many businesses have relocated or removed offices from California over the past decade what are you talking about man? just google it. I can name some specific companies that left and family friends that had to relocate out of state but you all would just say it's anecdotal evidence right?

here's the first thing google pops up just for 2011
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/m...ies-texas.html

or 2010
http://jan.blog.ocregister.com/2011/...ood-bye/53594/

here is comcast taking 1000+ jobs out of CA (I know people that worked in some of those call centers)
http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfranci...bs-out-of.html


this doesn't even scratch the surface with companies moving their data centers from cali to places like vegas or further. Last I heard CA is about to have the highest income state tax and highest sales tax in the US, you don't think this will affect businesses?

I don't think it has much effect at all - the recession had a much bigger effect. These tax increases always end up being revenue positive. If you have 3% of the major companies leave your state when you increase taxes by 5%, what happens?

And the "business tax" in prop 39 did nothing but close loopholes. Oh companies that are selling products in CA now have to pay CA sales tax? *shudder* the horror, I bet they don't sell at all in CA anymore!!!!!

[Tweek]

yeah it's all fun and games when it's not you losing your job or being forced to relocate out of state right? or it's all funny when it's not your business being impacted because the companies you do business with have moved their resources.

[Kohan]

oh so because you don't trust the source based on personal belief it means the companies have not left California?

No, it's because it—like Fox News—doesn't fairly examine both sides of the issue. Focusing on the negative in a sensationalist manner while deliberately ignoring the positive is poor and uninformative reporting. Therefore, your source is invalid.

I have seen the offices close down with my own eyes tell me they haven't left and haven't moved data centers or closed call centers and moved them or have completely uprooted silicon valley based companies distribution and manufacturing that used to ship out of california and moved them to the south none of that stuff happened right?

Perhaps it did, but now you're venturing into the anecdotal territory you picked on earlier. That is unimportant in the face of facts.

[Demosthenes11]

yeah it's all fun and games when it's not you losing your job or being forced to relocate out of state right? or it's all funny when it's not your business being impacted because the companies you do business with have moved their resources.

This just in: a state that is completely bankrupt needs to make really tough decisions to raise taxes and lower expenditures. More news at 10.

We raise taxes and a few people lose jobs? Or do we quit funding social programs that get the poor to work every day or care for the sick? Remove the tax credit for children? Cut education? Cut roadway projects? Close state parks?

Every option fucking sucks.

[Demosthenes11]

Hey guys we keep shipping jobs to india and china - we better lower our taxes and wages to their levels or else we are losing companies

[Tweek]

CA fucks up every budget they get.. give them more money!

No, it's because it—like Fox News—doesn't fairly examine both sides of the issue. Focusing on the negative in a sensationalist manner while deliberately ignoring the positive is poor and uninformative reporting. Therefore, your source is invalid.



Perhaps it did, but now you're venturing into the anecdotal territory you picked on earlier. That is unimportant in the face of facts.

Nah you're completely discrediting a source that specifically names companies that have left and tell me no jobs have not left, companies have not closed offices in California which is just not true because I have seen them myself.

Maybe you don't like the source well they specifically name companies if they're lying tell me which company names they made this shit up about cause what I said was companies have left CA and you're arguing that they haven't

[Tweek]

Demos says companies don't ever leave.
I show that some do and have.
Kohan say I'm wrong.
Demos says he understands but prefers some leave over other possibilities ie budget cuts.
Kohan says I'm wrong and justice use anecdotal evidence.


See the difference? Demos and I just have fundamental differences in our opinions on measures of fixing it (not something I ever argued or tried to sway him on) where as you try to stop the conversation calling me a liar telling me i'm making shit up and that my experiences are not worth responding to.

[Kohan]

Nah you're completely discrediting a source that specifically names companies that have left and tell me no jobs have not left, companies have not closed offices in California which is just not true because I have seen them myself.

No. I'm discrediting a source because they're only providing one sensationalized side of the issue. That isn't valid reporting; it's opinionated smearing, much like what you're doing. They're stating that companies have closed, but they are not reporting on the effect this has on the overall job environment. The link that I provided shows that this other side exists, and—contrasted against the OC Register's report—helps to paint a much more palatable picture.

I find it unfortunate that I have to repeat this for you, but evidently, your reading comprehension and attention span rivals that of an over-excited Jack Russel Terrier, hence your willingness to accept things at face value.

Maybe you don't like the source well they specifically name companies if they're lying tell me which company names they made this shit up about cause what I said was companies have left CA and you're arguing that they haven't

No, I wasn't doing that at all. You might want to slow down and actually pay attention to things; grammar and common sense will thank you when you do.

EDIT: Unsurprisingly, the little terrier started chasing his tail, and couldn't resist blathering out another post in his excitement. Well, let's get to that.

Demos says companies don't ever leave.

No, he doesn't:

I don't think it has much effect at all - the recession had a much bigger effect.

As for the next accusation...

Kohan say I'm wrong.

No, I didn't.

No, it's because it—like Fox News—doesn't fairly examine both sides of the issue. Focusing on the negative in a sensationalist manner while deliberately ignoring the positive is poor and uninformative reporting. Therefore, your source is invalid.

Once again, reality paints a different picture.

See the difference?

Yes. You're easily convinced, and you deliberately ignore any facts that disagree with your own opinions. Demo and I are not so easily convinced, nor are we so willing to run our mouths regarding matters we're uninformed on.

[Cantih]

Hey Archi, here's some news you'll love

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/cali...new-taxes.html

and especially

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/cali...ew-powers.html

...
Steinberg said he also would like to see the Legislature use a supermajority to put constitutional amendments on the ballot to limit initiatives in the future. One proposal would require, when an initiative qualifies, for a 60-day cooling off period during which the initiative backers would negotiate with the governor and Legislature on possible changes to the proposal. Another would allow the Legislature to put statutory changes on the ballot with a majority vote. He also would like to see future initiatives that change the law to be subject to a 10- or 15-year sunset date.
...

[Tweek]

.

[Kohan]

Oh ok.

And businesses will still be in CA and nobody will leave.

You... you do realize that your quoting him still doesn't prove what you said, don't you?

You can't be that stupid, can you?

I had low expectations, but you're impressing me. Not only did you deny my blatantly proving your incorrectness, but you attempted to justify your statements by posting a response that doesn't justify them at all.

I'm flabbergasted.

You're a fucking idiot and are literally having your own conversation not following the progression of the one I was having or what I have said.

Lol at your grammar comment while I post from my phone that went well with your other little insults

It's all right, little terrier. Keep angrily running in circles and adding nothing of substance to your side of the discussion. I'm sure everyone will wisely tune out your barking eventually.

[Tweek]

Demos says companies don't ever leave.

And businesses will still be in CA and nobody will leave.

You... you do realize that your quoting him still doesn't prove what you said, don't you?

Not sure if srs.

[Melena]

Stop arguing with Kohan. Unless your super liberal and only post Kohan approved sources, your wrong. You could physically work for a company that relocated out of the US and lose your job over this and he would still say your wrong. It's why it's the last post on this thread. The fact that he thinks i'm a conservative's conservative just shows the ignorance he's spouting.