Dev Tracker: Discussion (Old)

[Kohan]

Flowery Twats

Clearly, someone has discovered (or rediscovered) the magic that is "Fawlty Towers." How splendid.

This conversation may now resume.

[NynJa]

Tiamat was either pld and/or nin tanks, with Blm/Smn/Cor for main damage, or Apoc drk tanking with Blml/Smn/Cor for main damage.

I don't think either Fate or Chroma ever used war/thf and sam/thf...

Cors werent really used for damage back then?

[Chamaan]

Corsairs were the best JoT DDs! PEWPEW CHASE ME, EVERYONE, PEWPEW

[dasva]

Yeah I mean there was a decent reason why SE repeatidly buffed 2hd jobs till they made dualwielders cry

[fantasticdan]

Where will war/nin, blu, dnc, etc. stand against 2h dd with the fixed cratio?

[noodles355]

Cors werent really used for damage back then?

Were there primarily for Mab/Refresh rolls, but Water Shot was ok damge. One of our cors in Chroma had DP though, so was always getting drawn in and killed like the goon he is.

Clearly, someone has discovered (or rediscovered) the magic that is "Fawlty Towers." How splendid.

Farty towels has been in my life since forever, I just couldn't think of anything else for a title! Pic just changed to match it

[Damane]

Cors werent really used for damage back then?

actually they were used, Quick draw was one of the best dmg for tiamat, no MP needed just a recast of 45 sec! if you had 3-4 cors on tiamat with quickdraws and rolls shit went down fast. + QD didnt give TP.

[Obsidian]

Yeah I mean there was a decent reason why SE repeatidly buffed 2hd jobs till they made dualwielders cry

SAM is two-handed and everyone else just benefited by virtue of the buffs not being restricted to Great Katana.

[Ophannus]

I wonder what the JP community feels about 1h approaching 2h potency. I'm all for 1h catching up to close the gap but there should still be a marked difference between 2h DD and 1h DD. DNC and BLU are hybrid jobs and thus I don't feel like they ought to compete with equally geared/buffed 2handed DDs since they have other abilities that give them utility such as tanking/healing/debuffing. 2handed DDs are usually a bit more rigid than jobs like BLU THF DNC NIN which have all kinds of gimmicks, niches, or magic. Do you guys think NIN/DNC/BLU/THF should be able to compete on equal grounds as a DRG/DRK/WAR/SAM, given that BLU has all kinds of spells/nukes/heals/debuffs. NIN can tank, DNC can tank, debuff, heal, samba and THF with its SATA/hate shenannigans.

Given the rigidity or flexibility of jobs, I think the tiers of DDs would be fine if they were something like this:
Top tier: WAR, SAM, MNK, RNG (These jobs can DD and some can tank somewhat but given that they don't heal, cast, or debuff, they should be the best at raw damage)
Second tier: DRK, DRG. These jobs should still be excellent at DD but since they have more gimmicks, DRK with magic and DRG with Wyvern and breaths they're a bit more hybridy and flexible. For example a DRG/Mage is very capable of fully healing a lowman 6 party group and DRGs are good at keeping hate down, which is why I dont think they deserve the top spot.
Third Tier: PUP, DNC, THF, BLU,NIN. Because these jobs are extremely versatile and can play many, many roles I don't think it would be fair if they could compete with the above jobs for raw damage, or if they can, it should only be part-time under the effect of certain conditions(decked out BLU/WAR berserk'd, DW III set, or DNC/WAR with berserk with sword dance/haste samba up etc)

I just think the gap between the tiers should be lessened but the relative order of the tiers ought to remain the same where jobs with more versatility their roles sacrifice firepower for flexibility whereas jobs that are more one dimensional like MNK SAM RNG WAR should be top dogs. I'll probably get flack for this post but it's just an opinion, I want to see what other people's opinions are of flexible/versatile jobs doing comparable damage to jobs that can't do tricks like dropping instant cure 5's for no MP or stunning a target for 12 seconds or having a million shadows.

[Byrthnoth]

I think a lot of the durability benefits that you're leaning on to say X job should do shittier damage than Y job are actually far more irrelevant than you realize. Look at current endgame. People dualbox Salvage zones as DRK + WHM. Where's the benefit to NIN or DNC "being able to tank" which probably actually meant "being evasive" when you can take a job that does better damage and destroy the latest endgame content with it?

Damage mitigation/negation are somewhat irrelevant when WHMs have infinite MP thanks to AF3+2 pants and the shitton of Refresh equipment they get these days. Avoid getting one-shotted and you're golden.

[Nariont]

So I guess with this update pieces like abyss sollerets and the like which reduce/negate penalties to atk/def will be vital now? Guess I finally have a reason to +2 those boots.

[Taint]

So I guess with this update pieces like abyss sollerets and the like which reduce/negate penalties to atk/def will be vital now? Guess I finally have a reason to +2 those boots.

I hope that is the case in all honesty.

[Damane]

I wonder what the JP community feels about 1h approaching 2h potency. I'm all for 1h catching up to close the gap but there should still be a marked difference between 2h DD and 1h DD. DNC and BLU are hybrid jobs and thus I don't feel like they ought to compete with equally geared/buffed 2handed DDs since they have other abilities that give them utility such as tanking/healing/debuffing. 2handed DDs are usually a bit more rigid than jobs like BLU THF DNC NIN which have all kinds of gimmicks, niches, or magic. Do you guys think NIN/DNC/BLU/THF should be able to compete on equal grounds as a DRG/DRK/WAR/SAM, given that BLU has all kinds of spells/nukes/heals/debuffs. NIN can tank, DNC can tank, debuff, heal, samba and THF with its SATA/hate shenannigans.

Given the rigidity or flexibility of jobs, I think the tiers of DDs would be fine if they were something like this:
Top tier: WAR, SAM, MNK, RNG (These jobs can DD and some can tank somewhat but given that they don't heal, cast, or debuff, they should be the best at raw damage)
Second tier: DRK, DRG. These jobs should still be excellent at DD but since they have more gimmicks, DRK with magic and DRG with Wyvern and breaths they're a bit more hybridy and flexible. For example a DRG/Mage is very capable of fully healing a lowman 6 party group and DRGs are good at keeping hate down, which is why I dont think they deserve the top spot.
Third Tier: PUP, DNC, THF, BLU,NIN. Because these jobs are extremely versatile and can play many, many roles I don't think it would be fair if they could compete with the above jobs for raw damage, or if they can, it should only be part-time under the effect of certain conditions(decked out BLU/WAR berserk'd, DW III set, or DNC/WAR with berserk with sword dance/haste samba up etc)

I just think the gap between the tiers should be lessened but the relative order of the tiers ought to remain the same where jobs with more versatility their roles sacrifice firepower for flexibility whereas jobs that are more one dimensional like MNK SAM RNG WAR should be top dogs. I'll probably get flack for this post but it's just an opinion, I want to see what other people's opinions are of flexible/versatile jobs doing comparable damage to jobs that can't do tricks like dropping instant cure 5's for no MP or stunning a target for 12 seconds or having a million shadows.

I am sorry to say this but tanking for NIN/DNC/BLU was never viable on anything remotly hard (read legion, but thats a zerg fest anyway). If you are fighting trash mobs you might as well just slap a heavy DD and a whm on it and you have your tank there.

Blue-Magic does shit dmg to anything remotly hard (read legion) because you cant raise the attack value of it, and if you are fighting trash mobs, you will do more dmg with offensiv job traits set (triple attack, dualwield, subbing war) and CDC away, while occasionally useing efflux/chain affinity for a SC with a spell.

DNCs being able to heal allready takes away TP from them that could be used to dmg the mob, so it evens it out.

and NIN, well shadows aint gonna help you on anything remotly hard (read legion), debuffs usually get resisted on anything remotly hard, and ninjutsu elemental magic dmg sux. So I dont see a reason why nin shouldnt come close dmg wise to war/mnk/drk/sam etc. (read come close, not surpass). That might actually help them in the tanking department (enmity wise).

Closeing the gap isnt bad, and is actually long overdue.

the only one dimensional Melees I can see are WAR and MNK, so in this regard I think those 2 should pull ahead a bit dmg wise compared to the rest.

[Byrthnoth]

Monk is hardly one-dimensional considering it can not only negate 80% of the normal attacks directed at it but also return a punch at the same time. It's one-dimensional to play because it's so simple, but the roles it can take are numerous because of this damage negation. It's like having capped Evasion that works regardless of your enemy's accuracy (and does damage).

[dejet]

Monk is hardly one-dimensional considering it can not only negate 80% of the normal attacks directed at it but also return a punch at the same time. It's one-dimensional to play because it's so simple, but the roles it can take are numerous because of this damage negation. It's like having capped Evasion that works regardless of your enemy's accuracy (and does damage).

We have to see that unless se works something out counter stance is going to be worthless after their planes. So that is going out the window.

[Obsidian]

We have to see that unless se works something out counter stance is going to be worthless after their planes. So that is going out the window.

I don't see how countering 80% of attacks directed at you could ever be worthless. More situational maybe, but hardly worthless.

[dejet]

You see nothing wrong with having 45 def the 20% that hit you?

Physical tp moves will own you lol

[Taint]

You see nothing wrong with having 45 def the 20% that hit you?

Physical tp moves will own you lol

Under the current system its not that big a deal with a good PDT/hybrid set. Hopefully the new system makes it risky.

[Nariont]

Just as an additional bit of curiousity, does the magic change open up drks ability to nuke at all or is that still nothing but a novelty? Haven't kept up with this thread at all so probably missed any talk of it.

[Taint]

Just as an additional bit of curiousity, does the magic change open up drks ability to nuke at all or is that still nothing but a novelty? Haven't kept up with this thread at all so probably missed any talk of it.

Won't be worth using. There isn't a fix for DRK ele magic.