Dev Tracker: Discussion (Old)

[dasva]

One of the problems I always had with rdm is it is supposed to be a master enhancer and have all this skill navitely... and most buffs don't care. Would be interesting if they made more of the buffs potency based on skill. Even more so if it was didn't count light arts lol

[Obsidian]

Disagree completely. Sch is much better.

Firstly, Sch has convert as well unless you're on stun duty (and if you're on stun duty MP is never a problem).
Secondly, Penury/Parsimony - You left them out completely.
Thirdly, Sublimation > Refresh II.

Spoiler: show

Refresh II is 7MP per tick, +4MP for being able to idle in a refresh+2 body, +1 hat and owleyes. 11MP per tick. 60MP cost to cast.
Sublimation (with AF2+2 Body, AF hat, Earring and Siriti) is 13MP/tick with 30 seconds of downtime.

I charge 429MP in 33 ticks. I then have 10 ticks of downtime where I'll be getting 4MP/tick from swapping in refresh gear over sublimation. So sublimation gains 469MP every 43 ticks, for 10.9MP/tick.
Composure Refresh II gives 11mp/tick for 150 ticks (including the +4 refresh yo'd use instead of subli gear), 1650MP - 60 spell cost. So Composure Refresh II gives 1590MP every 150 ticks for 10.6MP/tick.

Fourthly, you can store a charged sublimation if you're not using your MP. That means you effectively have another +430~ish max MP for when you start to.

There is no way Rdm beats Sch for MP conservation and management. Sch is king for that.

AF3 cape and feet add 30% duration bonus on top of Composure. He probably left out Penury/Parsimony because /SCH gets them as well as Sublimation (although weaker). If I cared enough I could charge Sublimation between battles and then burn it and put up Refresh. In practice what happens is I forget that I have Sublimation charged and just overwrite it with Refresh II.

[Fiarlia]

Disagree completely. Sch is much better.

Firstly, Sch has convert as well unless you're on stun duty (and if you're on stun duty MP is never a problem).
Secondly, Penury/Parsimony - You left them out completely.
Thirdly, Sublimation > Refresh II.
Spoiler: Hide
Refresh II is 7MP per tick, +4MP for being able to idle in a refresh+2 body, +1 hat and owleyes. 11MP per tick. 60MP cost to cast.
Sublimation (with AF2+2 Body, AF hat, Earring and Siriti) is 13MP/tick with 30 seconds of downtime.

I charge 429MP in 33 ticks. I then have 10 ticks of downtime where I'll be getting 4MP/tick from swapping in refresh gear over sublimation. So sublimation gains 469MP every 43 ticks, for 10.9MP/tick.
Composure Refresh II gives 11mp/tick for 150 ticks (including the +4 refresh yo'd use instead of subli gear), 1650MP - 60 spell cost. So Composure Refresh II gives 1590MP every 150 ticks for 10.6MP/tick.

Fourthly, you can store a charged sublimation if you're not using your MP. That means you effectively have another +430~ish max MP for when you start to.

There is no way Rdm beats Sch for MP conservation and management. Sch is king for that.

RDM can't equip Owleyes. <_<

However, RDM does get a +2/tick hat.

You also forgot to factor the increased 30% duration of Refresh II from Empyrean +2 feet+cape bringing the duration to 9:45 (585 seconds) or 195 ticks. 195 ticks at 11 MP/tick (again, though they can't wear Owleyes they do get a +2 hat) is 2,145 - 72|60|54 (cost of Refresh II, Dark Arts|No Arts|Light Arts) is 2073|2085|2091 total MP. 2073|2085|2095 / 195 ticks is 10.6|10.6|10.7.

Obviously, the above changes didn't make much of an impact, just clarifying. Regardless, the same may not hold true for everybody. The numbers above are static; every RDM will have that exact same efficiency (assuming gear). Every SCH, however, will not. Sublimation max charge is based on your (currently equipped) max HP. Merits/Race/Idle gear will vary. Since the difference is only 0.3 (0.2 assuming RDM is /SCH with LA active), it's quite possible that one of the above variables will swing the favor towards RDM, and for some races quite likely, as well as some will swing the favor further towards SCH creating a bigger gap.

This is not me saying that RDM > SCH at all, so don't read into this. Most was mere elaboration. And this was also assuming you don't have the worst possible variables (in terms of what your max Sublimation can be)

[Obsidian]

RDM can't equip Owleyes. <_<

+2 from Duelist's Chapeau +2 though so it cancels out.

[dasva]

And sch can get what 5 while having 9 sublimation?

[Obsidian]

And sch can get what 5 while having 9 sublimation?

I have no idea what SCH equips during sublimation, but I'm assuming he only took the difference in idle Refresh from the gear he has to equip for +sublimation (head, body, ear?). Everything else RDM and SCH will both be wearing at the same time (Nares, Serpentes, Moonshade, Oneiros? Am I forgetting something? Barring Owleyes, but AF2+2 hat covers that difference).

[noodles355]

Feet/Back 30% duration would add another 45 ticks. 11MP, 195 ticks, -60 spell cost, 10.7MP/tick. Sublimation is still better.

Rdm gets Penury/Pasimony like you say, but they get 2 charges with a 2min recast, SCH main gets 5 charges at 48 second recast. Still favours SCH.

Yes, Rdm can prep a sublimation charge when there's downtime, but it takes about 6 minutes to ready a full charge, compared to SCH main's 1min40ish. It favours SCH, though only very slightly I'll gie you that.

That aside, Sch is still better than Rdm for MP management and conservation. Most people don't realise it because most people overlook sublimation. Even well respected posters here (I know byth has said on one occasion "Point for point, refresh > sublimation" before, which I showed as false).

[noodles355]

During sublimation SCH equips:
Owleyes > Siriti
Morri+1/Heka > Argute+2
Wivre Pin/Nefer > AF1 hat
Whatever earring > AF3 earring
Gives 13tick sublimation and leaves serpentes set and nares legs (and refresh moonshade if you have it) for refresh.

Sublimation is highly underrated, mainly because people don't realise just how fast it charges.

Edit: For my comparison, in places where a sublimation piece was used where rdm would use a refresh piece, I gave rdm +1 refresh. I didn't count for Oneiros grip though as I forgot about it. With Oneiros grip, Rdm's refresh is better.

Penury and Parsimony aren't the only strataagems that make SCH more MP efficient either. Rapture and Ebullience - more damage done or more HP cured for the same MP, and Rdm can't use those.

[Obsidian]

Feet/Back 30% duration would add another 45 ticks. 11MP, 195 ticks, -60 spell cost, 10.7MP/tick. Sublimation is still better.

Rdm gets Penury/Pasimony like you say, but they get 2 charges with a 2min recast, SCH main gets 5 charges at 48 second recast. Still favours SCH.

Yes, Rdm can prep a sublimation charge when there's downtime, but it takes about 6 minutes to ready a full charge, compared to SCH main's 1min40ish. It favours SCH, though only very slightly I'll gie you that.

That aside, Sch is still better than Rdm for MP management and conservation. Most people don't realise it because most people overlook sublimation. Even well respected posters here (I know byth has said on one occasion "Point for point, refresh > sublimation" before, which I showed as false).

Light Arts also cuts the cost of Refresh II by like... 10 MP, lol. Only other difference I can think of is that RDM's Convert timer is 1:40 shorter than SCH's would be. Amnesia will also screw you over. Both jobs are good enough at it to never need Convert anyway.

[noodles355]

RDM's Convert timer is 1:40 shorter than SCH's would be.

I can probably count on one hand the times I've needed to use convert.

Amnesia will also screw you over.

Stop it.

[Fiarlia]

For my comparison, in places where a sublimation piece was used where rdm would use a refresh piece, I gave rdm +1 refresh. I didn't count for Oneiros grip though as I forgot about it. With Oneiros grip, Rdm's refresh is better.

I imagine you forgot because you were thinking of Owleyes, which means you can't equip Oneiros Grip. I don't have an excuse though. >_>

Duration of 9:45 (585 seconds) or 195 ticks. 195 ticks at 12 MP/tick is 2,340 - 72|60|54 (cost of Refresh II, Dark Arts|No Arts|Light Arts) is 2268|2280|2286 total MP. 2268|2280|2286 / 195 ticks is 11.63|11.69|11.72.

That's a bigger difference, but it may still be possible for a SCH with the right conditions to have a better efficiency. Regardless, they're both good at it.

[Fiarlia]

Light Arts also cuts the cost of Refresh II by like... 10 MP, lol.

6 MP, being 10% and all, but meh.

Only other difference I can think of is that RDM's Convert timer is 1:40 shorter than SCH's would be.

Extra Strategems (or quicker if you prefer to look at it that way) kinda renders this a moot point, especially since, as you said, both jobs will rarely ever need Convert.


Ugh, sorry for double post, meant to edit my previous one.

[Damane]

Disagree completely. Sch is much better.

Firstly, Sch has convert as well unless you're on stun duty (and if you're on stun duty MP is never a problem).
Secondly, Penury/Parsimony - You left them out completely.
Thirdly, Sublimation > Refresh II.

Spoiler: show

Refresh II is 7MP per tick, +4MP for being able to idle in a refresh+2 body, +1 hat and owleyes. 11MP per tick. 60MP cost to cast.
Sublimation (with AF2+2 Body, AF hat, Earring and Siriti) is 13MP/tick with 30 seconds of downtime.

I charge 429MP in 33 ticks. I then have 10 ticks of downtime where I'll be getting 4MP/tick from swapping in refresh gear over sublimation. So sublimation gains 469MP every 43 ticks, for 10.9MP/tick.
Composure Refresh II gives 11mp/tick for 150 ticks (including the +4 refresh yo'd use instead of subli gear), 1650MP - 60 spell cost. So Composure Refresh II gives 1590MP every 150 ticks for 10.6MP/tick.

Fourthly, you can store a charged sublimation if you're not using your MP. That means you effectively have another +430~ish max MP for when you start to.

There is no way Rdm beats Sch for MP conservation and management. Sch is king for that.

I am very aware of the fact that sch can sub rdm for convert. However I was looking at it as a raw job without support jobs. SCH/blank vs RDM/blank MP efficience lets RDM win hands down.

Propsoal still stands:
- Makeing enspells I-II, Temper, Gain-Spells, Barspells castable on other PTmembers
- introducing the new spell "Fasten"
- revamping merit 2 category: giving all Spells to RDM and just let merits buff their potency further

Additional change to SCH:
- Adloquium caps at 5 regain/tic, 0 skill 1 tic, 125 skill 2 tics, 250 3 tics, 375 4 tics, 500 5 tics.

Additional change to WHM:
- Haste II

I think with those changes you would diversify those 3 mages enough.

Each of them has a unique strong buff. For example you would clearly want to stick a sch into a RNG PT for example with 5/tic adloqium, it would help them the most compared to haste or haste II.
RDM would have Temper, haste I, gain-spells, enspells, Fasten
and WHM would have haste II, boost-spells and supperior healing

[noodles355]

Comparing Sch/None and Rdm/None seems a bit silly though as you're unlikely to be without a sub (unless they add NMs/events that restrict SJ). I'd consider both Rdm and Sch A+ at MP conservation to be honest.

I like your proposals though.

[Damane]

Comparing Sch/None and Rdm/None seems a bit silly though as you're unlikely to be without a sub (unless they add NMs/events that restrict SJ). I'd consider both Rdm and Sch A+ at MP conservation to be honest.

I like your proposals though.

The reason why I looked at it as sch/none and rdm/none: We dont know what GEO or RNF will offer as a support Job. It might be well possibel both of them would have a unique worthwile buff that is worth subbing. Or that SE changes the level of some support based spell levels. Like they changed the spell lvl of storm spells and helixes on sch. What will happen if they made RDM haste lvl 50? Or they change the fact that some support job abilits like afflatus Solace/Misery would be usable as a support job? There is alot going on atm and SE is messing with support jobs (see Last resort on DRK).

[noodles355]

I'd sub /whm and cry ;;

[Obsidian]

Pretty confused as to why you're determined to give WHM a buff that should be going to RDM.

[Damane]

Pretty confused as to why you're determined to give WHM a buff that should be going to RDM.

I would give whm only Haste II if all of the other things I proposed go to rdm.

Temper, Gain-spells, Enspells, phalanx being castable on other PT members
+ Fasten as a new spell, would make RDM a very potent buffer in almost any situation. (+ changes to merit 2 category)

Thats why adding Haste II to WHM would be a logical choice and strenghtening Adloqium on SCH to 5tics, so you can diversify what you want:

Do you want your mainhealer to be:
RDM: Temper (20% double attack), Haste, Gain-spells, Enspells, Phalanx, Fasten (-20% casting/recast), very good healer, versatility (nukeing very strong debuffing crowd control)
WHM: Haste II, Boost spells (is the same as gain spells only AoE), Auspice, superior healer, limited crowd controling, Arise
SCH: Haste (with /rdm or /whm), 5/tic regain, Stormspells, Regen V, AoEing buffs, very good healer, versatility (nukeign debuffing, crowd control)

In my eyes this levels the playing field on all 3 of them, depending on what you want. Each of them gives you unique strong buffs the other cant give you. I would only give Haste II to rdm if the change to Temper wouldnt happen and it wouldnt be castable on PT members.

I agree tough that RDMs rating on Dark magic and divine magic needs to be bumped up to at least a C rating and Enhancing magic skill should be on a A-.

[arus2001]

When was RDM ever a real hybrid? Be real, it's been the same role the entire time, with solo capabilities tacked on. It's never been great at the melee aspect of the game. People liked it because at lower levels you could effectively melee well with RDM but that didn't last very long once the skill level gap grew. People take this experience and feel it should apply to RDM overall because it was initially advertised as a jack of all trades even when it was obvious that it wasn't to people who played it. But because it's advertised as such, people feel SE owes them in that department. Even when all the relic/af3 gear shows they are pushing RDM as purely a spellcaster.

But I wonder, is that because SE wanted it or SE adapting to how players wound up making use of the job? Chicken or egg? Yes, I see the whole "Jack" thing as an epic bait and switch as early as the CoP days. And sure, we could call in Greatguardian or Spankwustler to piss on the job concept en lieu of functionality like they loved to do on the OF, but that'd just be stroking their egos. The only reason why something doesn't work right now is because SE made it that way. And there's more melee can bring to the table than just damage. See: Dancer. Now, I'm not telling SE to rip off DNC and give its abilities to RDM, no. I'm just saying the act of striking can carry (unique) (de)buffs that people want. And if they're good enough, you don't have to parse like a MNK or WAR.

Now, there are some other general fixes people have brought up that I agree with. Some of the "grading" some others put up made me chuckle, though. Putting all of those together really wouldn't change RDM's position for the better, however. The job has been broken for a long time and those problems got overlooked because they functioned as okay WHMs in a pinch or someone who could hold their bladder for hours tickled Genbu to death with Bio. Those aren't reasons to screw the job out of flexibility or uniqueness, and its sub game right now is pretty much SCH for magery, NIN for "fighting shit that doesn't matter", and nichely BLM or DRK for poor-accuracy Stuns. If it isn't obvious yet, I don't like that, "You can't play the job a certain way in my presence!" vibe that the anti-melee wagon emits. So, this means if I don't wanna be the party bitch playing the job nobody else wants to play or "tolerates", I'm SOL. Oh, my bad, I gotta hit the moogle. Yes, because ignoring a problem totally fixes it.

Making suggestions here, on the OF, or submitting feedback directly to SE hasn't done a whole lot of good over the years, so I'm not keen on going into my own specifics just to have someone gleefully rip into them because it clashes with their vision. And if said vision is anything like your quote, then of course we'll never see eye to eye and I'd be willfully wasting time as I have zero interest in compromising with a pure back-line manifesto. Hit your moogle and play SCH if that's the RDM you wanted.

[Obsidian]

So you're gonna tear down everyone else's suggestions without posting your own? That seems a little hypocritical.

I'm not sure what you want them to add in the way of DNC-esque melee augmentations. Enspell IIs weaken elemental resistances, but that's basically useless (and DNC isn't exactly a hot commodity for endgame, so I'm not sure how something like that would raise RDM's stock anyway). I have no idea what RDM could do with its TP. RDM has more subjob options than MNK, WAR, NIN, SAM, WHM, BLM, DRG, PUP, SCH, or DRK (the rest have debatable uses for various subjobs), so I dunno where that argument is going.

There's a huge difference between "you can't play that way around me" and, "you're contributing absolutely nothing by meleeing that Qilin." If there was any merit to RDM melee at all, you wouldn't see people laughing at it. You don't see the Paladin forum lit up with requests for Holy adjustments. It's there, you can use it if you want to, but its utility is extremely limited (building Azure, basically). I have no idea what you want them to do, but I can tell you the likelihood of SE implementing a suggestion that doesn't exist is far smaller than the likelihood of SE implementing an idea that was proposed, discussed, and refined on various forums. If you have an idea for making RDM melee useful, I'm sure plenty of people would be all for it. I would love a reason to update the melee half of my RDM spellcast. But if you don't, and you're just shooting down other ideas because they clash with your vision, then you should probably just stop replying.