Dev Tracker: Discussion (Old)

[Byrthnoth]

Okay

I don't know what the heck he means then. The equation for 240 delay sword is approximately:
DMG = .5875*Level + 6

I'd have to look over the Enmity tests to see what was excluded, but I think that:
1) Cure gives positive enmity, not negative.
2) CE/VE from damage dealt is based on actual damage dealt on the swing, not the base damage of the weapon being swung directly.


It is also interesting to note that he picked out 240 delay. All ranged/melee items in the game are represented by their deviance from 240 delay, if I recall correctly. As an example, search 240 delay on FFXIAH without specifying Sword Skill:
http://www.ffxiah.com/search/item?&delay[0]=240&delay[1]=240#adv
Everything that doesn't have a delay also shows up.

[Slycer]

1) Cure gives positive enmity, not negative.

Curing, yes. My question is about being cured, not curing (assuming the note we're talking about was not in the wrong section of Matsui's post). I don't think it's a coincidence that he picked 240. He refers to it as some sort of "reference value" in his post.

[Cairthenn]

Pretty sure being cured affecting enmity was ruled out as an aside when the tests regarding range which cures affect enmity were performed. I suppose something could have been changed since 07, or it could have been goofed then (if it reduces a small amount of enmity).

[Byrthnoth]

I think it could reduce VE and the tests wouldn't have seen it, but I'm not sure that negative changes were ever necessarily ruled out in the tests. Still, I doubt it does because I've been in capped-enmity situations a lot in Abyssea and the monster doesn't turn away from me when I get hit with a big cure.

[dasva]

Okay, I think I get it. By lessening the amount of hate they create and generate from standard attacks, DDs will generate less enmity and decay hate faster, allowing PLDs and other tanks to maintain constant hate with their abilities and such. Is that in the same ballpark?

Less generated yess decay faster maybe sorta. Doesn't look like they adjusting decay over time. As far as decay from damage taken the translation said they will figure out how/if to adjust it. As having dds lose more hate makes it easier to tank but the tank losing more hat e wo uld make it harder too

[Hitou]

Whm's curing themselves after getting hit wouldn't have pulled hate back in the old days if the person being cast on (the whm) effectively lost enmity while also gaining it by being the caster. The mob would almost always go back and smack the whm that got hate, got hit and lost enmity from the damage and the cured themselves. If there was any kind of enmity loss on being cured I think it would be enough to to stop enmity from spiking enough to grab the mobs attention again. It also would have made tanking on PLD a lot harder than it was before everyone just started throwing DD at everything.

[Voyage1970]

Kaeko's testing on Cure enmity showed that regardless of who you cured, yourself or someone else, the amount of CE generated was the same. Granted this doesn't show whether you lose VE or not but considering the comment was in regards to damage taken enmity loss which only affects CE loss it seems the comment was misplaced and meant to refer to the damage formula.

Enmity Testing (Part VIII) Its Test 23C for reference.

[dasva]

Kaeko's testing on Cure enmity showed that regardless of who you cured, yourself or someone else, the amount of CE generated was the same. Granted this doesn't show whether you lose VE or not but considering the comment was in regards to damage taken enmity loss which only affects CE loss it seems the comment was misplaced and meant to refer to the damage formula.

Enmity Testing (Part VIII) Its Test 23C for reference.

Well if the people were the same lvls.

[Damane]

Kaeko's testing on Cure enmity showed that regardless of who you cured, yourself or someone else, the amount of CE generated was the same. Granted this doesn't show whether you lose VE or not but considering the comment was in regards to damage taken enmity loss which only affects CE loss it seems the comment was misplaced and meant to refer to the damage formula.

Enmity Testing (Part VIII) Its Test 23C for reference.

maybe what matsui meant was that cures actually had double the amount of enmity, but its cut in half. remember waaaaay back (like years ago) when cure enmity got a fix, because you could draw hate with 1 cure?

[Voyage1970]

Well if the people were the same lvls.

It wouldn't make a difference as the formula in question (Healing = 1/2 Damage Taken Enmity Loss) has no variable for level correction. So whether you were healing a level 1 PC or a level 75 PC the only thing affected would be the CE generated from the cure itself.

Given that the tests were conducted on level 75 PCs and using a max HP of 1700 (which is overestimating by a quite a bit given the level cap) if Cures did remove CE based on half the damage taken formula a Cure of 300 HP healed on yourself would generate 218 CE and you would also lose 158 CE effectively only gaining 60 CE. They tested CE gain by casting dispel (1 CE 300 VE) until the mob changed targets. Its safe to assume a discrepancy of 158 castings would have been noted in the results if this were the case.

[dasva]

It wouldn't make a difference as the formula in question (Healing = 1/2 Damage Taken Enmity Loss) has no variable for level correction. So whether you were healing a level 1 PC or a level 75 PC the only thing affected would be the CE generated from the cure itself.

Given that the tests were conducted on level 75 PCs and using a max HP of 1700 (which is overestimating by a quite a bit given the level cap) if Cures did remove CE based on half the damage taken formula a Cure of 300 HP healed on yourself would generate 218 CE and you would also lose 158 CE effectively only gaining 60 CE. They tested CE gain by casting dispel (1 CE 300 VE) until the mob changed targets. Its safe to assume a discrepancy of 158 castings would have been noted in the results if this were the case.

True I just meant that kanican testing was based on level to amend when you said CE is same regardless of who was cured. As far as what was released today idk. It's kinda some weird note at the end note. I'm guessing something is lost in the translation. But perhaps things have changed

[Khamsin]

In other words, if the PC takes the same amount of damage as their maximum HP, 1800 damage-volatile enmity is decayed.

I figured you'd be wiped (so to speak) from the hate list at this point.

[Plow]

Calculation of decay from damage taken
When a PC receives "d" damage from a monster, the damage-volatile enmity of the PC is reduced.

Damage-volatile enmity reduction = (1800 * d)/PC's max HP

In other words, if the PC takes the same amount of damage as their maximum HP, 1800 damage-volatile enmity is decayed.

*This calculation is subject to correction by Sentinel's effect.
*From the point of view of back-line jobs, this may be too low. By increasing the 1800 value, more enmity will be decayed when damage is taken. However, this would also have the reverse effect of making it difficult to maintain enmity when receiving damage as a tank. This all needs to be taken into consideration when making adjustments.
*For healing magic, the value is half of the above calculation.

Considering the bolded, I read it as implying there are separate VE calculations for damage and healing, and that healing's VE is reduced by half as much upon taking damage.

[Cairthenn]

That'd be a bit strange, too, given that CE has only one cap which remains the same no matter how enmity is acquired. And why would they make it so that mages take longer for enmity to decay?

[Plow]

It does seem strange, but can you think of any other reason for him to specify damage-VE twice?


It could also be something new they're doing, and if you think about it, if that is not the case now but will be in the future, it's a direct buff to pally tanking. Curing yourself while getting hit would be considerably more capable of holding hate than just doing more damage would. But it also seems, from a purely "eyeball" perspective, like that's always kind of been the case.

[Kyreth]

I figured you'd be wiped (so to speak) from the hate list at this point.

Depends. Is it before stuff like -PDT kicks in or Stoneskin/Phalanx? If that's the case, you could effectively wipe VE without dying.

[Slycer]

Depends. Is it before stuff like -PDT kicks in or Stoneskin/Phalanx? If that's the case, you could effectively wipe VE without dying.

Stoneskin/Phalanx/PDT/anything else that reduces your damage taken also prevents you from shedding CE (not VE - VE is the one that decays with time). CE shed is only based on the actual damage you take (i.e. how much your HP drops when you get hit). There are a couple other ways to marginally reduce CE as well - lose a shadow image, get enfeebled, etc., but taking damage is by far the primary way.

Just for clarity, in the translated post, "damage-volatile enmity" corresponds to Kaeko's "CE" and "time-volatile enmity" corresponds to Kaeko's "VE." It may be clearer to call them "damage-decaying enmity" and "time-decaying enmity" in the original post to avoid confusion with the "volatile" term.

[dasva]

I figured you'd be wiped (so to speak) from the hate list at this point.

It's been awhile but iirc the only ways to completely remove yourself were zoning and logging. And even then the mob for a time kept track of how much hate you had so if you got back on the list it could come at you

[Hitou]

Dying removes you from the hate list unless the mob has some kind of party or ally hate system like old school WoE did (still does?) Zoning and logging also remove you from the hate list in the same situations. Before deploy gave any emnity I used to be able to be able to aggro mobs, deploy puppet and let it die and I'd lose all hate. I think you used to be able to achieve the same effect by swaping hate with a puppet that took no action on the mob yet, but I might be remembering things wrong.

[Ladydeathstrike]

logging / zoning only removed hate if during the time you were out of zone / logged off you became top of the hate list