Dev Tracker: Discussion (Old)

[Darkmagi]

Except not, MNK was just a strong defensive DD. It wasn't on the level of a properly buffed 2h.

[Byrthnoth]

People often overestimate the DD potential of Monk relative to other jobs. I mean, here is Monk vs. Pil in the spreadsheet:

Spoiler: show

DPS: 507.1 before, 578 after : DPS+14%
Target: Pil (10% DEF down, level 110)

TP:
Verethragna 99

Potestas
Usukane +1
Rancor Max
Brutal
Ghillie +1
Thaumas
Tenryu +1 Aug
Rajas
Epona
Atheling
Windbuffet
Tantra +2
Usukane +1

WS:
Verethragna 99

Potestas
Khepri Aug
Justiciar's
Brutal
Moonshade AttTP
Khepri Aug
Myrmex
Rajas
Epona
Rancor Max
Caudata
Khepri Aug
Tantra +2


Buffs:
20% DA from Fighter's Roll
31.2% Attack from Chaos Roll
Impetus up 60% of the time
12 STR/DEX, 5% crit rate, 16 H2H, 5 Kick, 5 Counter
Victory Smite, no Boost, 30% ODD rate
5/5 AF3+2 set, March +5 x2, Minuet +5 x2 (5/5 merits)
Haste, Boost-STR (500 skill)

I don't feel using Boost spells other than STR is very realistic.

vs. DNC:

Spoiler: show

Assesses no penalty for maintaining AM3

DPS: 541.5 before, 623.6 after : DPS+15%
Target: Pil (10% DEF down, level 110)

TP:
Terpsichore (99)
Twashtar (99)

Potestas
Skadi +1
Nefarious
Brutal
Ghillie +1
Thaumas
Skadi +1
Rajas
Epona's
Rancorous Max
Windbuffet
Skadi +1
Charis +2

WS:
Terpsichore (99)
Twashtar (99)

Potestas
Khepri Aug
Justiciar's
Brutal
Ghillie +1
Khepri Aug
Myrmex
Rajas
Pyrosoul
Atheling
Wanion
Khepri Aug
Thaumas



Buffs:
20% DA from Fighter's Roll
31.2% Attack from Chaos Roll
Saber Dance and Haste Samba up all the time
12 STR/DEX, 5% crit rate, 16 Dagger, 5 Haste Samba, 5 Saber Dance, 5 Closed Position
Pyrrhic Kleos, AM3
5/5 AF3+2 set, March +5 x2, Minuet +5 x2 (5/5 merits)
Haste, Boost-STR (500 skill)

vs. Ukko's WAR, which is up around 700 DPS (683 not optimized) with the same buffs (no Berserk) and I'm too tired of copying and posting for.


So no, based on our current understanding of FFXI I don't really see this suddenly rocketing Monk to the front of the pack. It will bring it closer, but not much more than other 1H melee. I am consistently depressed by the performance of Monks in Provenance and they normally parse literally half my damage on WAR, and this will just make their performance a little less depressing. It also potentially enables DNCs to perform one of their former roles, providing Haste Samba. Haste Samba pushes the WAR from 683 to 722.1 DPS, an increase of ~6% before potential gear swaps (which would push it up over 740). If two melee experience an increase of 60 DPS because I'm on DNC in their party, I've made up the damage difference between my WAR and my DNC.

[Taim Meich]

And as Oph said, this will probably make well geared PUPs right up their in DD, probably around non 99 verth/ Sph MNKs.

Nah. Increasing the upper limit in the attack/defense ratio matters when you're already capping said ratio. PUPs are incapable of capping it in any high-end endgame content, unless somehow being magically in the party that gets all the cool buffs (and even then...?). Being at 1.35/1.41 in attack ratio before will just turn in 1.35/1.70 now, for example.

[Toth]

Nah. Increasing the upper limit in the attack/defense ratio matters when you're already capping said ratio. PUPs are incapable of capping it in any high-end endgame content, unless somehow being magically in the party that gets all the cool buffs (and even then...?). Being at 1.35/1.41 in attack ratio before will just turn in 1.35/1.70 now, for example.

Not being in that party is exactly why PUP nevers reaches the higher levels Hopefully this change will encourage smarter parties to give us the chance we deserve to pwn.

[Fake]

The amount of monk fanboyism still around is truely astounding. Yes it can be a very strong DD if you optimise your buffs/gear for a specific target (which is what Pchan has done repeatedly in the past, but not for the other jobs when making job comparisons), it still falls short of the likes of rag drk/ukon war doing the same thing. The 12-17% boost it looks like this update will give isn't enough to put mnk on par with drk or war.

[Economizer]

No plan on adjusting Cure VI's enmity

Sometimes I wonder why they even added this spell to the game.

The only real logic I can guess is that Puppetmaster needed a better healing spell because boosting the cure power of the automation wasn't as easy in other ways for SE at the time and then gave it to White Mages to prevent complaints, or (this one is a pretty crappy reason) as a band-aid adjustment for White Mages until the cure formula changes.

I have been overly dismissive of the higher tier cures lately but short of the enmity changes really screwing over Cure III/IV and Curaga spells, Cure VI is a very niche cure spell. Things with niche usage in FFXI tend to either be junk all the time or become game-breaking, neither of which are usually very good for design.

People often overestimate the DD potential of Monk relative to other jobs. I mean, here is Monk vs. Pil in the spreadsheet:

I wonder where the rest of the pack stand, I suspect BLU will see a major boost between being able to Berserk because they can Cocoon and the changes.

Hopefully this change will encourage smarter parties to give us the chance we deserve to pwn.

Don't see why they would. Let's say you're in a high buff party... would the buffs give PUP a higher DPS boost then the WAR/DRK/SAM/DRG? What about the other 1h jobs? And don't forget spaces for the buffers themselves. And of course, we'll have to see a resurgence in DNC because of Haste Samba being able to make a difference, especially since Last Resort won't do shit for 1h jobs.

I just don't see PUP doing it unless buffs start extending to pets reliably (or possibly something else like it doing higher damage then I've been suggested, or if it had a BRD pet).

[Gokku]

Pchan aside, and speaking solely from personal experience, I find the math to just be wrong, there's litteraly a handful of relic drks and even less empy wars capable of out dpsing me. *only fights I haven't gone to on monk are mul and odin2.0*. When I get home I can post parses of me on pilsner doing 30-50 percent damage vs darks and wars that are just spamming ukkos and resolution. This could all be due to most people who can outparse me not needing the content.

[Darkmagi]

The problem with that is, that usually points to bad players rather than a jobs strength. There are just so many bad players with good gear, so it can be a little misleading.

[Fake]

Pchan aside, and speaking solely from personal experience, I find the math to just be wrong, there's litteraly a handful of relic drks and even less empy wars capable of out dpsing me. *only fights I haven't gone to on monk are mul and odin2.0*. When I get home I can post parses of me on pilsner doing 30-50 percent damage vs darks and wars that are just spamming ukkos and resolution. This could all be due to most people who can outparse me not needing the content.

Your personal experience doesn't mean anything, I have tons of parses from VW of me doing 30%+ of alliance damage on various jobs, this doesn't mean anything at all (I bet if you actually analyse things like total # of WS done etc. it will become apparent very quickly that these relic drks/emp wars with decent gear are actually just fucking terrible players). The math is correct and mnks potential is lower than that of war and drk, just because you play with people who suck doesn't change that.

[mdkuser]

People often overestimate the DD potential of Monk relative to other jobs. I mean, here is Monk vs. Pil in the spreadsheet:

try using good gear sets for MNK and a good weapon too. also boost-DEX and enfire....

[Gokku]

Your personal experience doesn't mean anything, I have tons of parses from VW of me doing 30%+ of alliance damage on various jobs, this doesn't mean anything at all (I bet if you actually analyse things like total # of WS done etc. it will become apparent very quickly that these relic drks/emp wars with decent gear are actually just fucking terrible players). The math is correct and mnks potential is lower than that of war and drk, just because you play with people who suck doesn't change that.

So the wider ideal that dark is a better dps is wrong, it's that dark has the potential to be a better dps?

[Obsidian]

I'm curious; does Fighter's roll really offer more to a Vereth MNK than Rogue's roll would?

[Jem]

So the wider ideal that dark is a better dps is wrong, it's that dark has the potential to be a better dps?

Bad players will parse badly regardless of the job, gear or weapon you put in their hand.

EDIT: Assuming same player skill/gear and commonly used buffs then DRK beats MNK if that's what you meant.

[Byrthnoth]

I'll see your "only a handful of WARs and DRKs can touch me" and raise you a "The only time MNKs get close enough to sniff my farts is when we're fighting low level monsters and I'm multiboxing." I haven't even bothered to uncurse or augment an Armadaberk because I feel taru investments into heavy DD jobs are a waste of gil, still haven't gone back and gotten the last 10 Bloodshed plans for Ares Flanchard +1, etc.

Rules of FFXI:
1) Most players don't know what gear they should get.
2) Most players have crappy gear.
3) Most players don't properly swap the gear they have.
4) Even if they're wearing the right things and swapping properly, very few players are capable of playing DD jobs as well as autoexec.

Spoiler: show

ae registerq 55555 tp_1?? Ukkosfury
ae registerq 55556 tp_2?? Ukkosfury
ae registerq 55557 tp_300 Ukkosfury
ae registerq 55558 losebuff_berserk wait 61;berserk;
ae registerq 55559 losebuff_aggressor wait 111;aggressor;
ae registerq 55560 losebuff_hasso hasso;
etc.

try using good gear sets for MNK and a good weapon too. also boost-DEX and enfire....

Every monster isn't ADL and PD is getting nerfed. Adding summoner is adding another job that takes up a party space, and their buffs aren't good enough to warrant inclusion. Also, it's not reasonable to use Boost-DEX (an AoE spell) when most other jobs benefit more from Boost-STR. Party DPS will be higher with Boost-STR.

Iirc, the gearset I used for Monk was posted by pchan on ffxiah and then tweaked so it came out a little better in the spreadsheet. Monk just isn't that impressive.



Re: Obsidian
A 20% Rogue's Roll is slightly worse than a 20% Fighter's Roll for Monk. It is also slightly worse for WAR. The particular target we picked has a 20% Rogue's Roll being better than a 31.2% Chaos Roll for WAR and MNK, though.

Boost-DEX pushes MNK up to 553 DPS with my set. That's an average DPS increase of 46 (+10% DPS against this particular enemy), but your other party members are probably going to be losing a little damage from it (WAR drops 10 DPS because dDEX doesn't affect crit rate) and it's totally possible that you'll be fighting monsters where it does nothing for anyone it hits.

Including Chaos -> Rogue's and Boost-DEX for the MNK, its DPS gets up to 585 combined. Toss in a 500 skill Enfire (assuming no resists) and you have 650 DPS for the MNK.

Do Chaos -> Rogue's and Boost-STR for the WAR, its DPS gets up to 702.5. Toss in a DNC Haste Samba (with gear swaps) and its DPS gets up to 761.8. 500 skill Enfire would be 729.2.

Either way, even with the Ratio update it looks like MNK will only be within fart-sniffing distance in high buff situations, which is pretty much how it should be.

[Jem]

Byrth, out of sheer curiousity, do you know where the update would roughly peg a dual wielding Axe WAR using Ruinator? I'd check myself but can't run the spreadsheet at work D:

[Toth]

Sometimes I wonder why they even added this spell to the game.

The only real logic I can guess is that Puppetmaster needed a better healing spell because boosting the cure power of the automation wasn't as easy in other ways for SE at the time and then gave it to White Mages to prevent complaints, or (this one is a pretty crappy reason) as a band-aid adjustment for White Mages until the cure formula changes.

I have been overly dismissive of the higher tier cures lately but short of the enmity changes really screwing over Cure III/IV and Curaga spells, Cure VI is a very niche cure spell. Things with niche usage in FFXI tend to either be junk all the time or become game-breaking, neither of which are usually very good for design.



I wonder where the rest of the pack stand, I suspect BLU will see a major boost between being able to Berserk because they can Cocoon and the changes.



Don't see why they would. Let's say you're in a high buff party... would the buffs give PUP a higher DPS boost then the WAR/DRK/SAM/DRG? What about the other 1h jobs? And don't forget spaces for the buffers themselves. And of course, we'll have to see a resurgence in DNC because of Haste Samba being able to make a difference, especially since Last Resort won't do shit for 1h jobs.

I just don't see PUP doing it unless buffs start extending to pets reliably (or possibly something else like it doing higher damage then I've been suggested, or if it had a BRD pet).

Remember that PUP is more than just the master in total DD. while we are getting a nice boost, so are our automatons potentially (referring to the new DD SP coming that would let our automaton spam Mighty Strikes ( with Overdrived maneuvers) or magic spells via Chainspell. Not every LS has relic DRKs and WARs for every spot either.

Tldr PUPs will improve from this update and the new SPs and should be considered an excellent DD option..if the PUP does not suck.....

[Fake]

try using good gear sets for MNK and a good weapon too. also boost-DEX and enfire....

This is fucking hilarious, so you're supposed to have a smn and whm in the same party at the same time? Or are you constantly swapping jobs in/out for every single thing you do in game. Boost-dex is worse for every other job/weapon.

Using same buffs a bryth with your ultimate impetus down/up sets I only got at ~30 DPS increase (that is with sphari too obviously) which isn't enough.

You can't make mnk compete with War/Drk without using buffs that specifically cater to it, at a cost to every other DD that may be in party.

[Darkmagi]

So fucking hilarious because I remember them being so anti cor, yet having a WHM and a SMN to put things in MNKs favor? Not biased in the slightest.

[Jem]

So fucking hilarious because I remember them being so anti cor, yet having a WHM and a SMN to put things in MNKs favor? Not biased in the slightest.

Don't forget that DRKs aren't allowed to use Souleater either! Not that people were using it in their DPS calcs anyway...

[Toth]

I guess this is where a sane person asks if it really matters if the mob other than ADL or Tanaka's AoE fanatics dies 10 seconds faster because you had a slightly better DD in one slot.