Dev Tracker: Discussion (Old)

**Indalecia** · 2013-03-19 15:45

Originally Posted by Toth

Hey slycer, think you could ask a question on the JP side? I was wondering if automaton, avatars, and other peTs and wyverns are going to be affected by this change. Was there ever set DMG and delay parameters found for pets that may be adjusted as well, since main hands were based on lvl 75 weapons?

Specifically, will avatars still have the delay of a staff with the base dmg of h2h. Avatar attack was never really a problem; comparatively, avatars have extremely high att against non-buffed players.

**dasva** · 2013-03-19 15:49

Oh shit hadn't thought of how the adjustments would effect pet tanking. Leech and turtle gunna take it like a champ

**Chamaan** · 2013-03-19 15:56

Originally Posted by Indalecia

Specifically, will avatars still have the delay of a staff with the base dmg of h2h. Avatar attack was never really a problem; comparatively, avatars have extremely high att against non-buffed players.

There really needs to be some kind of Martial Arts trait for pets. =\

**TummieGaruda** · 2013-03-19 17:03

Originally Posted by Byrthnoth

People often overestimate the DD potential of Monk relative to other jobs. I mean, here is Monk vs. Pil in the spreadsheet:

Spoiler: show

vs. DNC:

Spoiler: show

vs. Ukko's WAR, which is up around 700 DPS (683 not optimized) with the same buffs (no Berserk) and I'm too tired of copying and posting for.

So no, based on our current understanding of FFXI I don't really see this suddenly rocketing Monk to the front of the pack. It will bring it closer, but not much more than other 1H melee. I am consistently depressed by the performance of Monks in Provenance and they normally parse literally half my damage on WAR, and this will just make their performance a little less depressing. It also potentially enables DNCs to perform one of their former roles, providing Haste Samba. Haste Samba pushes the WAR from 683 to 722.1 DPS, an increase of ~6% before potential gear swaps (which would push it up over 740). If two melee experience an increase of 60 DPS because I'm on DNC in their party, I've made up the damage difference between my WAR and my DNC.

Byrth, I am curious about the final DPS calculations after the proposed update changes. I plugged the same information for MNK into the DPS spreadsheet and I have the same current DPS as you at around 507, however my DPS after the 1h update is much lower at 541 (Changed the ratio in the Data sheet to reflect a max cRatio of 2.25 instead of 2.0)

**Byrthnoth** · 2013-03-19 21:39

My setup was such that Ratio was still capped after I raised the cap. If I was going to guess, I'd say that your Ratio uncapped when you upped the cap.

**barber2006** · 2013-03-20 00:27

The way I've always looked at monk is.....if it's countering it is incredible. If its not its probably behind.

So in trio situations awesome. In groups with less than impressive DD's awesome. In alliances with 10 other people wailing on something with max buffs..... behind.

Ignoring procs there is only one best in any given situation. I guess you can argue depending on the mob/buffs/etc what job that is. There is really no reason to play any other job (I guess lack of gear). That's why I like monk. When it's turning 80% of a mobs attacks into its own white damage its a beast. To waltz (yeah that was on purpose) into bhaf 2 with a whm mule in fishing gear and punch cerb into submission is fun. For anything super heavy I'll be on Daur/Ghorn anyways so there is no point in leveling a job that excels in that realm. Likewise, the debate between dnc, blu, mnk, etc is of no value because the 'competition' between these jobs is moot since none are the best in 4 song situations. Also, there is no way to quantify (at least as far as I know) the amount of counter damage can be added to monk in any situation since hate bounces at the cap. But it does add damage and will vary based on the other party members.

**TummieGaruda** · 2013-03-20 01:09

Originally Posted by Byrthnoth

My setup was such that Ratio was still capped after I raised the cap. If I was going to guess, I'd say that your Ratio uncapped when you upped the cap.

Took another look with same gear/buffs and it gives me 508.53 as the combined DPS for 60% impetus on a Taru MNK/WAR which seems to be the cap at 2.0 cRatio. However, upping the cap to 2.25 seems to confirm what you said about my ratio being uncapped. So somewhere between your set and mine there is some unaccounted for attack that I am not seeing unless you are using berserk as one of the buffs which puts mine in the same area of DPS that you mentioned for the 2.25 cRatio increase.

Also just for the hell of it, I ran the same numbers as if the DNC was in the same PT as the MNK and even with the Haste Samba buff, the MNK is still behind by about 10 DPS after the 1h change which sadly reiterates what most have been saying about MNK's damage.

**Kincard** · 2013-03-20 02:33

What's the one hander hierarchy again?

MNK > DNC > BLU > THF > PUP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NIN? (Not sure where BST fits, I think DNC/BLU/THF are kind of on a pileup depending on what they're doing)

**Prothescar** · 2013-03-20 02:37

(':

1h hierarchy more like MNK >= BLU = DNC > THF >= PUP > NIN >= BST, the only way DNC is equal to BLU is with Terpsichord tbh, without that it's difficult to maintain a steady damage output. MNK, BLU, and DNC are never beyond 7~10% apart assuming equal skill. DNC's biggest enemy is JA delay (doesn't help that none of its weaponskills are naturally very sufficient and Climatic is on such a long recast) while BLU's biggest enemy is WS delay. Lower end of the spectrum is difficult to quantify as all of the jobs rely on crutches or cooldowns to maintain damage flow.

**Kincard** · 2013-03-20 04:12

I guess what's nice about the 1H hierarchy is that when you're choosing between those jobs at the top, they all offer something different and unique: MNK with countertanking, DNC with self-SC and haste samba, THF with hate stealing and burst WSs, BLU with, like, every function ever (assuming they fix shit like Tourbillion). I guess maybe they should also refine those aspects of the job more, though that leaves PUP, NIN, BST with what they're supposed to be offering.

Trying to figure out ways to fix those, I guess the way to fix the first two would be:
1. Give more control over the Puppet (And make maneuvers not be so annoyingly short)
2. Make it so NIN is actually able to tank better-er than any random 2-hander riding Seigan, and maybe add some debuffs unique to NIN so they have something to offer when they're awful at tanking.

Not sure about BST, they're actually already pretty useful if you know what you're doing with them, like you can cure if you're using the rabbit. I guess just more pets with different functions would be appropriate.

**RicFlair** · 2013-03-20 05:31

What makes Mnk possibly equal to Blu? I'm assuming you're only considering straight DPS without physical spells. CDC isnt as impressive as Victory smite and our attribute bonuses and job traits from spells aren't that big of a deal. If anything it feels like

Mnk >>>>> Blu > Dnc > Thf >>> Pup >>>>>>>>>>>> Nin >>>>> BST

**Shenrien** · 2013-03-20 06:16

I expect this untested adjustment to bring lots of server maintenance and lots of broken numbers, on day one.

**Cairthenn** · 2013-03-20 08:47

It's not like they went without the test server for nine years. The random bugs still occur with the test server implemented; I'm pretty sure bugs related to a very minor change would not be avoided by allowing users to hit things for the corrected damage potentials.

**Byrthnoth** · 2013-03-20 08:50

Honestly, I have seen no evidence that they read the test server bug forum.

**Prothescar** · 2013-03-20 12:06

Originally Posted by RicFlair

CDC isnt as impressive as Victory smite

What? At the very least they're equal and at the best CDC is actually superior, on paper, to Victory Smite by a small amount. The weaponskills are almost identical except for different crit rates from TP and a different stat for WSC, which favors each weaponskill in different situations:

-Victory Smite's STR WSC allows for bonus base damage through fSTR
-Chant du Cygne's DEX WSC allows for bonus critical hit rate through dDEX

At 100TP CDC has a superior critical hit rate from TP to VS, at 300 VS has a superior critical hit rate from TP to CDC. They're both on the same fulcrum, VS by itself does not come close to blowing CDC away.

CDC's DEX mod gives BLU a higher overall WSC and makes it easier to gear for crits. VS's STR mod gives a small bonus to base damage through fSTR.

and our attribute bonuses and job traits from spells aren't that big of a deal.

wat. you don't see how this is completely false? access to a native dual wield III, triple attack, store TP(II), and to a lesser extent traits like accuracy bonus and skillchain bonus is a major boon. attribute bonuses through spells serves only to even out base attributes with other jobs, in some cases exceeding them (base DEX for example is usually higher on BLU than other jobs when counting spell bonuses).

As for job vs job, I've gone over it numerous times in the past so here's the cliff notes:

MNK Pros:
-Higher base damage
-Impetus

BLU Pros:
-Higher attack frequency
-Ability to have higher crit rate
-Array of support and debuff spells that MNK can not emulate

BLU's attack frequency and critical hit rate serve to mitigate MNK's base damage edge completely while cutting into Impetus to a much lesser extent. Impetus is literally the only reason that MNK is ahead at all, and it is not a severe lead by any stretch of the imagination. Jobs such as BLU and DNC are capable of mitigating a lot of MNK's few advantages simply by having different advantages over MNK.

MNK >= BLU = DNC > THF >= PUP > NIN >= BST.

**Byrthnoth** · 2013-03-20 12:15

If getting Haste Samba, THF/WAR almost has to be a better DD than DNC. Just going to throw that out there!

**Prothescar** · 2013-03-20 12:26

edited my post with an actual reply

**dasva** · 2013-03-20 15:39

Psh no way pup beating bst!

**Dotsudoku** · 2013-03-20 17:01

Axe delay makes me want to hang myself

**Indalecia** · 2013-03-20 17:45

Originally Posted by dasva

Psh no way pup beating bst!

Haha....good one

Wait, you're serious?

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