Dev Tracker: Discussion (Old)

**shepardG** · 2013-03-22 12:17

That dev post was stupid, revealing all kinds of new info, but not really revealing a damn thing.

**Kyte** · 2013-03-22 12:20

Originally Posted by Indalecia

You DO realize that we are about to embark on a 2-3 year story dump that will boil down to "an Odin did it", right?

LALALALALALALLA I can't hear you!

I'm still optimistic, okay? I'm really hoping that the time frame for the storyline release rate will be closer to CoP's and nowhere near WOTG's.

**Prothescar** · 2013-03-22 13:09

Yeah Byrth idk man, my results are different.

Gearsets:

Spoiler: show

MNK and WAR TP sets unlikely to be optimal.

Buffs:

Minuet x2
March x2
Boost-STR
Fighter's Roll
Chaos Roll
Rogue's Roll

Target:

Target.Level = 110;
Target.VIT = 120;
Target.AGI = 115;
Target.INT = 95;
Target.MND = 90;
Target.CHR = 90;
Target.Defence = 750;
Target.Evasion = 400,
Target.CritEvasion = 0;
Target.MDB = 50;

Results:

WAR: 576
MNK: 548
BLU: 486
BST: 424

Differences between:

MNK and BLU: 12.8%
BLU and BST: 14.6%
BST and MNK: 29.2%
WAR and MNK: 5.1%
WAR and BLU: 18.5%
WAR and BST: 35.8%

No Rogue's:

WAR: 538
MNK: 490
BLU: 435
BST: 396

Differences between:

MNK and BLU: 12.6%
BLU and BST: 9.8%
BST and MNK: 23.7%
WAR and MNK: 9.8%
WAR and BLU: 23.7%
WAR and BST: 35.9%

Put the DEF down to 600 and we get:

WAR: 604
MNK: 610
BLU: 516
BST: 465

Differences between:

MNK and BLU: 18.2%
BLU and BST: 11%
BST and MNK: 31.2%
WAR and MNK: 0.9%
WAR and BLU: 17%
WAR and BST: 29.9%

No Rogue's:

WAR: 562
MNK: 545
BLU: 469
BST: 437

Differences between:

MNK and BLU: 16.2%
BLU and BST: 7.3%
BST and MNK: 24.7%
WAR and MNK: 3.1%
WAR and BLU: 19.8%
WAR and BST: 28.6%

DEF values are this way to incorporate DEF downs. Easier than having a toggle switch since it'd have the same effect either way. WAR's performance unexpected. Axes could very well be viable in situations where ratio is unsatisfactory, but it would have to be pretty dire. Overall the high DEF and boost-STR favors WAR and BST. BLU's relative scarcity of gear options (no melee salvage stuff really kicked us in the balls, a lot of Skadi gear would have dramatically increased damage output and usukane gear heavily increased MNK's standing relatively) and BST's natural flaws stop them from matching MNK or BLU. WAR runs at the head of the pack, as expected, but did not foresee it being best. BLU needs some new gear, BST needs a lot of things, MNK and WAR are fine where they are.

WAR's Strengths: Pure damage, little defensive value
MNK's Strengths: Pure damage, counters enhance defensive value in some cases
BLU's Strengths: Lower damage output than WAR and MNK, but high defensive ability in addition to support and enfeebling ability in some cases
BST's Strengths: Lower damage than other three, but has Killer Instinct and pet debuffs

DNC isn't in this due to two things:

a) I don't have reasonable gear sets for it
b) I have to restructure steps and flourishes

**Kincard** · 2013-03-22 13:17

They always like to talk about job adjustments being difficult because of the sheer number of them, but wasn't the last time they did really significant changes to job function like...a year ago? It would be nice to at least hear what their vision of each job actually is at this point.

**Jem** · 2013-03-22 13:19

I imagine Ares Flanchard +1 & Ares Gauntlets +1 would probably be an improvement over Phorcys + Avant. You're basically dropping Attack for DA/TA and I imagine you're capping attack on Ruinator. Will probably only be a very minor improvement though.

**Byrthnoth** · 2013-03-22 13:27

I can save you some time with DNC and just tell you that steps/flourishes will only hurt you in highly buffed situations unless you're also going to incorporate self-skillchain damage. Even that would be hard, because it's possible to reliably make single-darkness without using flourishes at capped magic Haste with Terpsichore.

When I did it, I adapted Motenten's BST sheet, which consisted of:
* Stats Cell A47 -> "War" (This changes all the stats to WAR main)
* Other Lists L29 -> "35%" (This adds Ruinator's Attack Bonus)
* Gear Lists (added a bunch of crap so WAR could wear it)
* Data B/C13 -> .."+15%" (For WAR main with 5/5 merits)
* Data B/C17 -> "8%" (For WAR's Crit Attack Bonus traits)
I didn't add WAR's Attack Bonus traits, but the simulation was also attack capped so it didn't matter

It appropriately accounted for Dual Wield gear and stuff. I did the simulations under the same conditions as before with this gear:

Spoiler: show

**Prothescar** · 2013-03-22 13:27

Originally Posted by Jem

I imagine Ares Flanchard +1 & Ares Gauntlets +1 would probably be an improvement over Phorcys + Avant. You're basically dropping Attack for DA/TA and I imagine you're capping attack on Ruinator. Will probably only be a very minor improvement though.

538.196 -> 538.635 DPS, 3244.21 -> 3254.72 WS avg on 750DEF target.

**dasva** · 2013-03-22 13:30

Hmm those fatigue change proposals might make old fish good again....

**Buffy** · 2013-03-22 13:31

The lack of farmville stuff at expansion launch has me highly disappointed, I was assuming this was going to be one of the primary methods of introducing high-end synth materials.

**Jem** · 2013-03-22 13:45

Wow, only a really small improvement then. I thought it would be a slightly bigger improvement since it's basically equates to an extra 3% DA. Although I did forget about the 2 STR loss from Phorcys set bonus.

Did you guys run it under the same buffs btw?

**dasva** · 2013-03-22 13:50

Are those current numbers or post ratio change?

**Prothescar** · 2013-03-22 13:53

2, fairly nonsensical on my part I suppose since I'm omitting Embrava but not using 2.25 ratio. 2.25 benefits WAR and BST more if attack is high, aka "WAR is unnerfable". Will run 2.25 ones later

**Byrthnoth** · 2013-03-22 13:56

Mine were post, end up with 1.7 Ratio in all my cases. Target was Pil (stock) with 10% defense down and these buffs:
* 5/5 BRD AF3+2 set, 5 Minuet merits:
** Victory/Advancing March +5
** Valor Minuet IV/V +5
* Boost-STR (500 Skill)
* Red Curry Bun
* 12 STR/DEX Merits
* 16 Axe Skill merits
* 5% Crit Rate
* 5/5 Ruinator
* Galka WAR/NIN
* Chaos Roll (31.2%)
* Fighter's Roll (20%)
* Haste (150/1024)

So basically capped attack, capped magic Haste, normal merits, Boost-STR/+10 STR&DEX from AF3+2 set bonus, and 20% DA Fighter's Roll.

**Prothescar** · 2013-03-22 14:41

Different targets and buffs are all I can really pinpoint for any major discrepancy, gear set possibly but unsure and can't run it atm. I've got my simulation tuned as close as I can get to perfection with our currently understood models and haven't really run into any substantial bugs that'd cause major issues with accuracy of DPS readouts. The only way I can get WAR to be inferior to other DDs is by removing them from buffs.

**Slycer** · 2013-03-22 15:31

Official translation is up, nothing notably different (unless you care about the English term for Reive points - "Bayld").

**Taim Meich** · 2013-03-22 20:55

Proth, could you try PUP/WAR with this gear? Probably not perfect, but should be pretty close to optimized. This is for Berserk up, maybe some changes could be made for Berserk down, but not much really.

TP:

Kenkonken 99

Deluxe animator
Nemetona cap
Cirque necklace
Brutal earring
Ghillie earring +1
Thaumas coat
Myrmex mittens
Rajas ring
Epona's ring
Pantin cape
Twilight belt
Usukane hizayoroi +1
Usukane sune-ate +1

Stringing Pummel:

Kenkonken 99

Deluxe Animator
Thaumas hat
Elemental gorget
Brutal earring
Kemas earring
Matanca harness
Myrmex mittens
Spiral ring
Rajas ring
Rancorous mantle (maxed)
Elemental Belt
Abatteur subligar
Thaumas kecks

**Prothescar** · 2013-03-22 21:06

It's going to be entirely without the puppet. Probably best anyway since wasting time on maintaining it is lowering your dps

**Dotsudoku** · 2013-03-22 21:16

I ran sets earlier for PUP with what I could figure was perfect. Results against Qilin for KKK/Pummel were sub-400, results for 99Vere/Smite were slightly below

Results against Mul-level mobs were laughable. The job cannot perform there at all

Expressing the same sentiment I did earlier: I'd love a KKK for dicking around actually doing things with the puppet, but its offensive potential is likely substantially lower than most of us have speculated in the past

**Dotsudoku** · 2013-03-22 21:18

Er, and the sub-400 estimate assumed maintaining AM3 flawlessly and without penalty, so I imagine it's quite a bit worse in practice

**Taim Meich** · 2013-03-22 21:42

Yeah, KKK is more potent on paper (and low on buffs) than on reality, but I'd love to see some comparisons on high-end stuff, just to see how low can PUP go -_-

Last time I did VW as PUP and dared to use a DD automaton I think it was on Smierc, and got so depressed on the parsed acc (and that's with every +acc attachment and capped skill) that immediately changed Sancho to WHM, so that I could get hastes and cures in the misc/mage party. Not accounting for the automaton will make close to no impact on the calculation.

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