Dev Tracker: Discussion (Old)

[Dotsudoku]

Probably phrased that awkwardly- meant to read as "he's explained that the math should lend to no net CE/VE gain for most/all pets, which makes what you're experiencing normal"

[Dotsudoku]

Also, http://kanican.livejournal.com/21441.html is there a reason for the hole in the SMN pet command enmity table? Was aware of the negative enmity accrued by certain abilities, but the blanks on assault/ward/rage commands is odd

[Byrthnoth]

As soon as you take hate on SMN, the pet goes after the monster and kills it. This makes testing avatar crap difficult. It is easy to test the action's total enmity, but hard to isolate cumulative enmity unless you're tricky.

[Fake]

I'm guessing those numbers are based on level 99 targets. Extrapolating from the enmity tables the CE and VE multiplier will be /70 for a level 105 target.

As a rough rule against a level 105 target (since almost everything in Adoulin is within the T-VT range) you need to do almost 4 times as much damage as you take (with 1500hp) for a net gain in CE and over 60 damage per second for a net gain in VE. Avatars obviously don't come close to doing this.

What I fail to understand is all the reports of people pulling hate with slow/haste/stoneskin, since they aren't solo they should atleast be getting haste their VE alone should prevent any real hate problems past the first few attack rounds.

[Dotsudoku]

AFAIK most of those hate issues have been against umbrils, which seem to operate differently than normal targets

[Fake]

I've discounted anything that specifically mentions umbrils since they seem to have increased magic enmity generation or decreased physical generation, but there is still lots of whining about it.

[Ophannus]

In wonder if this was intentional. I doubt SE was pleased with BST soloing so much currency in dyna, or BST/SMN/PUPs soloing entire Abyssea zones themselves. I could be wrong, but if they haven't mentioned it yet as a glitch or known issues then there are 2 prevailing theories I suppose:

1) This was a 'kill 2 birds with 1 stone' deal, nerf pet solo while making dedicated, non-dd tanks i.e PLD/RUN relevant again for endgame/group content.

2) It was an unexpected and unintentional outcome; a byproduct of their reworking the enmity calculation.

I feel as though it's #1 because in a group setting, the pet hate issue is somewhat favorable I suppose in that the pets won't be taking hate off the player who's trying to keep hate and makes pet actions virtually hate free. In any case this really only affects soloing. I wonder if SE will address it coinsidering solo is very low impact and probably not something they envisioned. I doubt they really had the foresight to imagine pet jobs soloing hard shit with pet PDT gear, dual wielding astofolos and shit. I think they implemented pet PDT to prevent pets from dying to AoE in group fights, not to go off and solo the world with it, which is why I dont think they'll adjust it.

[Fake]

They haven't succeeded in any way in doing your first point though. All they've done is made it so you can be less aggressive with certain job abilities (moreso when used in combination with eachother), any good DD is still going to be able to cap hate very quickly and with capped magic haste essentially nothing has changed after the first 30 seconds of a fight.

Edit: I meant that they haven't made pld or run any more relevant, obviously they have affected pet jobs

[Alkar]

The issue is on all mobs not just Umbrils. Avatars lose hate very fast even after BP:Rage or anything they do really. One spell of any kind is enough to pull hate unless there's someone else hitting your mob. If you do nothing but use BPs the monster will still come after you after it hits your avatar a few times.
SMN is the most affected because we really can't do much compared to other pet jobs. I've also tried meleeing alongside my avatar and in that case the mob simply spins all the time, switching target (and yes, I'm using BP:Rage and Ward to try and keep hate on the avatar).
The issue here is that they've reduced the enmity generated by the avatar DD and left the JA hate untouched. Thus we get hate whenever we issue pet commands. Same applies to enhancing magic.

[Tarage]

omg avatar hate is totally borked right now.

my avatar could do 4k dmg on the mob, and it'd turn to me for casting Aquaveil.

I noticed that. I thought it was just new hate or the new mobs in general but yeah... I was fighting a cricket and suddenly without doing ANYTHING it would just poke me in my squishy face.

In wonder if this was intentional. I doubt SE was pleased with BST soloing so much currency in dyna, or BST/SMN/PUPs soloing entire Abyssea zones themselves.

If this was their intent, they just killed SMN. Seriously, of all the jobs that needed a nerf, SMN is NOT that job.

[Fake]

The issue is on all mobs not just Umbrils. Avatars lose hate very fast even after BP:Rage or anything they do really. One spell of any kind is enough to pull hate unless there's someone else hitting your mob. If you do nothing but use BPs the monster will still come after you after it hits your avatar a few times.
SMN is the most affected because we really can't do much compared to other pet jobs. I've also tried meleeing alongside my avatar and in that case the mob simply spins all the time, switching target (and yes, I'm using BP:Rage and Ward to try and keep hate on the avatar).
The issue here is that they've reduced the enmity generated by the avatar DD and left the JA hate untouched. Thus we get hate whenever we issue pet commands. Same applies to enhancing magic.

The last few posts weren't refering to smn, it was already explained 1 page back why avatars never make a net gain in enmity on anything worthwhile

[Byrthnoth]

The issue here is that they've reduced the enmity generated by the avatar DD and left the JA hate untouched. Thus we get hate whenever we issue pet commands. Same applies to enhancing magic.

Yeah, this isn't actually the problem. Even if they reduced JA enmity to 20 VE and 1 CE, the monster would still come after you for using a BP rage every 45 seconds even if you had just afked between Rages. The problem is that SE has reduced enmity gained from damage to the point that terrible Avatar DPS cannot keep positive enmity. Your avatar drifts towards (and hits) 0 total enmity during the 45 seconds between BPs, so any enmity associated with BPs is going to pull the monster to you regardless how small it is.

The solution for this is NOT to ask for less Enmity to be associated with pet commands/etc. The solution is better Avatar DPS. Say it with me now! Better Avatar DPS! The lowered Enmity system actually freed SE to improve Avatar DPS without turning Summoner into a totally invincible solo monster.

[arus2001]

Wouldn't be surprised to see SE just give pets varied +Enmity depending on their intended role, myself. Though, I also doubt they're shedding many tears on people losing the ability to solo things they might not want soloed.

[Kaisha]

If this was their intent, they just killed SMN. Seriously, of all the jobs that needed a nerf, SMN is NOT that job.

Dynamis mobs aren't lvl99+, so the larger emnity drop via dmg wouldn't kick in. I would assume pets would still somewhat be able to keep hate even with whatever drop emnity-via-dmg has between 75-98.

[Tarage]

Dynamis mobs aren't lvl99+, so the larger emnity drop via dmg wouldn't kick in. I would assume pets would still somewhat be able to keep hate even with whatever drop emnity-via-dmg has between 75-98.

My point isn't Dynamis related. My point is if SMN got a solo nerf, it was undeserved.

[dasva]

My point isn't Dynamis related. My point is if SMN got a solo nerf, it was undeserved.

Smn didn't get nerfed enmity got adjusted. Yes that means everyone will have a harder time maintaining hate especially the jobs that held rather tenous grips on it to begin with

[Tarage]

Smn didn't get nerfed enmity got adjusted. Yes that means everyone will have a harder time maintaining hate especially the jobs that held rather tenous grips on it to begin with

If you can't see that the current situation is a heavy nerf, you are blind or have never played SMN before. Not being able to keep hate on the avatar means the SMN just dies. We have the lowest defense of every job in the game.

I really hope this is a mistake and not working as intended. Can someone ask on the official forums?

[Dotsudoku]

..you think that doing exactly what they said they intended to do was unintentional?

Nobody prioritizes summoner's solo capacity over balancing our incredibly broken enmity system, developers included. I'm sorry that a job that stumbled into being able to solo pretty minor things no longer can do so. There are still several more useless jobs, and several more problems to fix

[dasva]

If you can't see that the current situation is a heavy nerf, you are blind or have never played SMN before. Not being able to keep hate on the avatar means the SMN just dies. We have the lowest defense of every job in the game.

I really hope this is a mistake and not working as intended. Can someone ask on the official forums?

Again it isn't a smn nerf it is a change to all enmity which makes it harder for everyone especially jobs that were horrible keeping hate to begin with. Saying this is a smn nerf is like saying multihit ws tp update was a drg nerf

[Alkar]

..you think that doing exactly what they said they intended to do was unintentional?

Nobody prioritizes summoner's solo capacity over balancing our incredibly broken enmity system, developers included. I'm sorry that a job that stumbled into being able to solo pretty minor things no longer can do so. There are still several more useless jobs, and several more problems to fix

Nobody said that SMN's solo ability should be a priority over the enmity adjustments but we literally can't solo shit anymore unless we kite for hours. Fuck that.
We can still solo but it takes forever, how does that make any sense? Why is the job always going backwards when the whole game is moving on?
And do you really think they checked all the possible variables when making these adjustments, especially when it comes to a job that is always ignored no matter what?
We've been asking for better DPS for years, I doubt it's coming even if they fucked up everything now.