Dev Tracker: Discussion (Old)

[Byrthnoth]

I'm all for endgame fights being more than 30 min of buffing/gathering and 2 min of zerging crap down. But I don't see how making mages a pain the the ass to play would help make fights more fun. Buffing should pull hate? Why? Wouldn't that just bring back RDM tanking? Bards should pull hate for doing it's only duty in the entire game? Ok. Wouldn't that bring back BRD tanking? If I'm on a mage and casting buffs on the DD is gonna get me killed, what am I probably not going to cast anymore? If a DD is bleeding HP and curing them is gonna get me killed, I'd just let them die and let the mob go back to the tank. Aren't people already using hate tools like voke etc to keep hate on them? Are buffs really pulling that much hate right now that lowering their enmity is going to change anything?

It makes sense for cures to pull hate so you have to be careful on whm, but for some reason they decided Cure IV should be whm's most efficient cure and doesn't give nearly the enmity it used to anymore. So again, not disagreeing with you, but just confused how what you described would make things better.

The answer to the bolded questions is "No." It should be pretty obvious at this point that you need more than shadows, Phalanx, and 50% PDT to keep you alive against the current "tanked" enemies. You basically need Aegis or Ochain.

The answer to the other questions is, "It would make you time the buffs you give and the cures you cast more carefully, potentially limiting them if your party can't compensate for the enmity they generate." I mean, I guess I'd be sorry if lazyBard required some skill or attention to play? Naw, not really. I guess I'd be sorry if we had to bring tank-ish jobs to things, if DDs had to use vokes instead of just opening with attack rounds, etc.? No, not really at all. We haven't gone far enough towards giving support jobs enmity yet. The game is still too easy and the enmity system still does not really require attention if you have Marches.

[lolwut]

The answer to the bolded questions is "No." It should be pretty obvious at this point that you need more than shadows, Phalanx, and 50% PDT to keep you alive against the current "tanked" enemies. You basically need Aegis or Ochain.

The answer to the other questions is, "It would make you time the buffs you give and the cures you cast more carefully, potentially limiting them if your party can't compensate for the enmity they generate." I mean, I guess I'd be sorry if lazyBard required some skill or attention to play? Naw, not really. I guess I'd be sorry if we had to bring tank-ish jobs to things, if DDs had to use vokes instead of just opening with attack rounds, etc.? No, not really at all. We haven't gone far enough towards giving support jobs enmity yet. The game is still too easy and the enmity system still does not really require attention if you have Marches.

[dasva]

I'm all for endgame fights being more than 30 min of buffing/gathering and 2 min of zerging crap down. But I don't see how making mages a pain the the ass to play would help make fights more fun. Buffing should pull hate? Why? Wouldn't that just bring back RDM tanking? Bards should pull hate for doing it's only duty in the entire game? Ok. Wouldn't that bring back BRD tanking? If I'm on a mage and casting buffs on the DD is gonna get me killed, what am I probably not going to cast anymore? If a DD is bleeding HP and curing them is gonna get me killed, I'd just let them die and let the mob go back to the tank. Aren't people already using hate tools like voke etc to keep hate on them? Are buffs really pulling that much hate right now that lowering their enmity is going to change anything?

It makes sense for cures to pull hate so you have to be careful on whm, but for some reason they decided Cure IV should be whm's most efficient cure and doesn't give nearly the enmity it used to anymore. So again, not disagreeing with you, but just confused how what you described would make things better.

Heres the thing though. Right now buffs are very low hate. You kinda hit on the problem though. Tanks are hemorrhaging enmity because tanking with your face shouldn't scare any mob. While for all the hate problems the support is getting hit less so bleeding less. Plus when's the last time you saw people with serious +/- enmity sets. And part of the problem is tp feed. I mean if you had 10 full hasted mobs on you and you had 200k hp you could and should be able to cleave like crazy

[Hitou]

The answer to the bolded questions is "No." It should be pretty obvious at this point that you need more than shadows, Phalanx, and 50% PDT to keep you alive against the current "tanked" enemies. You basically need Aegis or Ochain.

The answer to the other questions is, "It would make you time the buffs you give and the cures you cast more carefully, potentially limiting them if your party can't compensate for the enmity they generate." I mean, I guess I'd be sorry if lazyBard required some skill or attention to play? Naw, not really. I guess I'd be sorry if we had to bring tank-ish jobs to things, if DDs had to use vokes instead of just opening with attack rounds, etc.? No, not really at all. We haven't gone far enough towards giving support jobs enmity yet. The game is still too easy and the enmity system still does not really require attention if you have Marches.

Yeah I thought about that after I posed it, especially with the def changes.

Wouldn't the enmity on buffs have to be increased for what you're saying to happen? I haven't noticed brds or mages pulling hate doing their normal thing since the update, but maybe it is happening in some situations. Brd would need a lot more to happen than getting hit for singing it's 4 or 5 songs for it to be an interesting job that isn't lazy outside of gearing it. And again, have people not been using voke since the update? I know I have cause a few melee swings usually isn't enough to keep hate for very long. I mean, if you're subbing war, why not?

Game has never been hard, people just used to have crappier gear available and didn't play as well. But yeah, things need to change but I'm not sure they ever will the way people want them to.

[Byrthnoth]

Yeah, that's why I said "I think SE is (a bunch of) idiots for adjusting this and Cure downwards and if anything then it should be adjusted upwards to increase the difficulty"

They already announced that they're going to nerf ability and enhancing enmity in the next patch. It will bring us essentially back to our former system with a few notable exceptions (tanking abilities still have high Enmity). I think that's a much more boring state of play than what they could have made.

[Hitou]

Yeah. I donno how they can make "Tanks" better at tanking mobs than DD without either nerfing DD damage to the ground, giving all endgame type mobs like 50% pdt all the time, or giving pld and w/e else you consider a tank more hate tools than a DD has available. But the last one would make tanking on PLD "too easy" so it's kind of a catch 22. All of this crap would take amazing balance to actually work, and we all know how well SE handles that.

[dasva]

Yeah, that's why I said "I think SE is (a bunch of) idiots for adjusting this and Cure downwards and if anything then it should be adjusted upwards to increase the difficulty"

They already announced that they're going to nerf ability and enhancing enmity in the next patch. It will bring us essentially back to our former system with a few notable exceptions (tanking abilities still have high Enmity). I think that's a much more boring state of play than what they could have made.

Yeah reminds back in the day with people throwing around whm/nin tanking with mythic and na spells for hate. Or nin/brd until they gimped mazurka enmity. But yeah with the exception of fighting umbril or being on pet jobs I'm finding the enmity changes making less of an impact then people seem to think. I mean I've still yet to go darn I should make my whm mule less gimp and get it some -enmity gear/merits or +enmity for my main

[Damane]

Only thing with enmity and att/def updates I'm sad about is they barely touched the positive side of att/def. I mean making downsides actually be downsides is perfectly legit but would be nice to also have greater benefit from overwhelming def too. Lowering the lvl correct is a step in the right direction... but I feel that shouldn't even exist in the first place. I mean we don't get att bonuses against mobs we are higher lvl then. The idea that regardless of stats they should hit harder and take less just because they are higher lvl but if we are higher lvl we wont necessarily take less dmg or hit harder is kinda wtf.

actually stacking on defense has a noticable effect on your damage taken, stack def food with def buffs and def abilitys and mobs wont scratch you. You actually take less damage then before when you go with def food out.

I dont know why people are all rageing about the update to enmity and atk/def. I find it refreshing and it puts more thought into your playstyle. I cant go Fellcleave mobs in reives with berserk up or I eat dirt. If I want to make my life easier fellcleaving mobs in reives I eat def food which helps a ton and negates the downward effects of berserk to some degree. If I dont want to get my mage to be smacked around after I just barely claimed the mob with a melee hit I need to use provoke. You actually NEED to use now enmity tools, which is actually the point of haveing those said enmity tools. If I dont want hate at all as a melee might as well go /drg and use High jump. I know bad example, but /drg definitly has a bigger impact now with high jump on your enmity then before. If you cape hate now on melee and can shed off 1/3 if that is pritty substantional and I know everyone subs /sam, but for controlled fights this might open up possiblitys (this is just an example). In essence this update made tools that had no use again usefull and could evolve again strategys for use. This update made alot of things usefull that werent anymore. So many jobs have so many abilitys to control enmity or impact it in some form. hell sch has enmity spells. I think its time to put those things again into use.

[dasva]

Sorry I didn't mean to imply it's useless just that there is still somewhat a disparity in the magnitude in the difference -def makes compared to the difference +def makes. I'm all for def stacking. Was using def/pdt builds to super tank on rdm since beforr rdm became useless lol. Just while now you'd think twice before using beserk you still going to have to think 3-4 times before using defender

[Fwahm]

They said that was an idea they were considering. Update notes says they just lowered lvl correction. No mention of anything Andolin specific

"This adjustment does not apply to enemies that have yet to be introduced." means that SE is doing something different with mobs in Adoulin. Based on their comments before, there's a very high chance it means that level correction does not apply to them, like they planned. In addition, my estimates on mob cRatio also supports that they lack level correction in Adoulin.

In addition, mobs in Adoulin have higher stats and lower levels than older content, which means that they are designing the mobs around having no (or at least severely reduced) level correction. The highest non NMs in Adoulin are only level 105, and revamped GoV zones go higher than that.

[Economizer]

If I was playing as Tiamat and wanted to wipe the annoying alliance fighting me as quickly as possible, I would kill the healers

Parties would bring Red Mages with PDT sets to heal instead. Or White Mage might have a more reliable amount of PDT on non-weapon gear. Or Paladins would become better at healing. Dancers might actually have lower cooldown timers (not that they shouldn't already) so they can heal and tank at the same time more effectively.

I can imagine FFXI where the healers tanked, although I image it would center around Red Mages built more like tanks and White Mages build more like other games Clerics, and traditional tank classes would either be more damage oriented or more healing oriented. We already had a game where damage dealers tanked - they were given a ton of defensive abilities by SE and it worked out pretty well for them. If this game was built more to allow PvP it would probably be build more like that anyways.

[dasva]

"This adjustment does not apply to enemies that have yet to be introduced." means that SE is doing something different with mobs in Adoulin. Based on their comments before, there's a very high chance it means that level correction does not apply to them, like they planned. In addition, my estimates on mob cRatio also supports that they lack level correction in Adoulin.

In addition, mobs in Adoulin have higher stats and lower levels than older content, which means that they are designing the mobs around having no (or at least severely reduced) level correction. The highest non NMs in Adoulin are only level 105, and revamped GoV zones go higher than that.

While those are definitely possible assumptions they are currently still that. Given that that statement came out at about the same time soa was introduced you could make the argument that they referring to future mobs. And seems odd they'd mention specific changes to one and not say the other or even make it clear they were doing something different if that was the intention. I suppose an OF clarification is in order given the ambiguity. I'm not saying I think you're necessarily wrong just they've left things unclear if they did any of the other things they discussed as possible options earlier.

Regardless my point remains that something is odd when we get penalized in 2 different ways (even if only in old zones now) for lvl but mobs don't.

[Xantavia]

No, I simply wanted these changes implemented first on the test server before the launch of Adoulin. I don't think it's that unreasonable considering that's the whole purpose of the server to begin with.

Unfortunately, how much testing was actually being done on the server? I know some people were testing stuff out for the jobs the loved, but it seemed more like a playground for people to do stuff they couldn't on the regular servers. That, and trying to figure out what items were required for any new quests so they could corner the market before it went live.

[chichicha]

any news on update for end of the month? or
They are just gonna adjust -
Enmity, Attack and Defense? lolz

[Kyte]

If you would actually read the update announcements they posted, part of your question would be answered.

[chichicha]

If you would actually read the update announcements they posted, part of your question would be answered.

What I am looking forward is more detail about the update they used to do, in their official website / official forum.

I do read their post, it's just a short summary what they are planning to do, but this is SE.
Anything planned, doesn't mean it is going to happen.

On the other hand, what they have been posted on their forum, it is happened.

[Buffy]

So what you are saying is:

I do read their post, it's just a short summary what they are planning to do, but this is SE.
Anything planned, doesn't mean it is going to happen.

They don't do what they say they are going to do.

However:

On the other hand, what they have been posted on their forum, it is happened.

At least they do what they say they are going to do.

Makes total sense!

[Slycer]

Nothing really worth translating from the JP side today. Unless, of course, you really wanted to equip Khloros Blade on RUN in which case your dreams will come true after the update at the end of the month.

[dasva]

Nothing really worth translating from the JP side today. Unless, of course, you really wanted to equip Khloros Blade on RUN in which case your dreams will come true after the update at the end of the month.

Scrouge and a 2hd weapon with less dmg then some 1 hd what's not to love

[Ophannus]

The update will wrangle together further enmity adjustments, reive adjustments, attribute corrections and adjustments associated with weapons skills learned through merit points, cap increases for magic skills, and a bevy of job-related adjustments.

bev·y
/ˈbevē/
Noun

A large group of people or things of a particular kind.


So far only RUN adjustments; no new spells/traits/JA on test server besides new SP abilities. Update is this week and no new notes so far...