Dev Tracker: Discussion (Old)

[Jem]

Why should it work one way and not the other? If you think an 85 Almace would get 120D, do you think a 99 one would get 180 or something obscene? I don't think it's unreasonable at all to say that if a 99 is getting bumped to 110 (the Delve sword is 130 and has no Aftermath/CDC), an 85 should be raised in step (70? 80? I dunno). I do however think it's ridiculous and entirely hypocritical to say that Afterglow weapons should just get an even better buff than 99s because they're "better", when an hour ago only the final form of the weapon should get any buff at all. The guy who took two months to 85 his Redemption still spent the same amount of time as the guy who took two months to 99 his Ukonsvara. What makes the Ukon's time more valuable than the Redemption's? Nothing, other than the "BUT I'M SPECIAL" attitude the Ukon seems to have.

Square's concept is stupid, yes, but so is this ridiculous sense of entitlement and self-importance.

The one at 85 doesn't get upgraded because it still has upgrades available for it that the person has decided not to do. If they want the extra boost the 99 gets (assuming they get buffed) then do the damn 85 > 99 trials and earn it. It's not like they are completely eliminated from getting the boost, they just have to put in the work first to make it 99 before they can get it. Compare it to the old days. It would be like someone with a Stage 3 relic complaining they don't get access to the Magian Trial boosts like completed relics.

Or how about we compare it to RL. Person X studies for 4 years and gets a Master degree. Person Y studies for 4 years but only completes their Bachelors. Can Person Y then complain when Person X gets a job that requires a Masters degree whilst they can't get the same job? No, they can't even though they both studied the same length of time.

Taking the same length of time to accomplish less does not entitle you to the same rewards as a person who accomplished more with their time.

Basically there is always the option of getting your R/E/M up to 99 to reap the rewards. It's not like they would be going 'Oh, you only have a 85/90/95 atm? Sucks to be you then because you'll never be able to get this new swell bonus!'. You can get it if you just finish off the weapon. And if the bonus is good enough then I am sure the market to buy plates/marrows will still be there as people will farm them for gil. Basic supply and demand.

[Prothescar]

Why should it work one way and not the other? If you think an 85 Almace would get 120D, do you think a 99 one would get 180 or something obscene? I don't think it's unreasonable at all to say that if a 99 is getting bumped to 110 (the Delve sword is 130 and has no Aftermath/CDC), an 85 should be raised in step (70? 80? I dunno). I do however think it's ridiculous and entirely hypocritical to say that Afterglow weapons should just get an even better buff than 99s because they're "better", when an hour ago only the final form of the weapon should get any buff at all. The guy who took two months to 85 his Redemption still spent the same amount of time as the guy who took two months to 99 his Ukonsvara. What makes the Ukon's time more valuable than the Redemption's? Nothing, other than the "BUT I'M SPECIAL" attitude the Ukon seems to have.

Square's concept is stupid, yes, but so is this ridiculous sense of entitlement and self-importance.

Are you putting an inkling of thought into your argument? Do you have any idea what it takes to build an afterglow weapon? Compare it to making a lv 85 Emp, for fairness I'll assume the person plays more than 20 minutes a day:

La Theine path: 2~5 days for competent players
Konschtat path: 2~5 days for competent players if Fistule, 4~7 for Peiste
Tahrongi path: 4~7 days for competent players

Now let's think about what it takes to build a 99 emp:

90 -> 95: 105,000,000g
95 -> 99: 24,000,000g dross +/-, 66,000,000g+/- cinder
99 -> 99a: 1,200,000,000g+/- dross, 3,300,000,000g+/- cinder


The player making an 85 emp has no one to blame but themselves if they take 2 months to build an emp. It isn't due to difficulty or spent resources that it takes them that long, it's lack of playtime or ineptitude. An afterglow weapon requires a monumental amount of resources to complete, and the fact that you're even comparing the two in any capacity is laughable. Besides that, the 99 afterglow weapon is in its current ultimate form. A level 85 weapon is several trials behind and does not deserve to gain any benefit from post-99 upgrades just because someone doesn't feel like upgrading it to 99. For what the person who can't upgrade the weapon to 99/99a is using it for, you don't need a 130D weapon which is the entire point.

If you honestly don't see why one of these shouldn't be held in higher standing than the other then I honestly don't know what words to type to make you understand, because you're too far gone to be saved.

[NynJa]

Obsidian is goin full retard here

I can maybe understand 95/99 emp since if SE is attempting to phase VW out, materials may be hard to accrue. But an inability to get a 90 emp? Seriously, its cliché, but go back to alla.

[jPuff]

I guess my issue is they've put a damper on many of the moneymakers the average joe was using to complete these weapons (currency lol, VW dead and dying, alex plummeting) with this miracle patch. No one is buying anything now and for good reason. Conceivably if the buff is actually meaningful some of these may revitalize to a degree, but they need other means of getting cinders/plates if these weapons are going to continue to have a role in the game (who knows if they will at this point). I'm hoping that at least marrows will go down a bit once LSes start getting these absurd Delve weapons so it'll be easier to top off 95s in this withering economy. That's the only potential silver lining I can think of.

[noodles355]

It isn't due to difficulty or spent resources that it takes them that long, it's lack of playtime or ineptitude.

Actually more than anything it's lack of resources. I could be a very skilled player playing 8 hours a day, but if I don't have people to help me farm the materials for the 80/85/90 trials, then for most cases I am not going to be able to solo them in the time frame you have quoted.

Your next logical counter-argument would be: for those who don't have the manpower to make it in that timeframe, spend your time farming gil and shout to buy the materials. However spent gil on empyrean materials is a spent resource, which contradicts what you have said.

Don't let the "I can do it so why can't you" mentality take control of your basic reasoning. Whilst I don't agree with obsidian, I also disagree with your empyrean farming timeframes for the reasons outlined above.

[orinthia]

Maybe they could go with the option they gave to dagger way back when they scaled up its dmg: just curve up dmg to the new lv99 peaks. There are still quite a lot of lv99 weapons left in the dust by these new items. In fact, many of them are just a month old. Lv99 requirement has no meaning if weapons of the same lvl can be 150 base dmg apart. That's like comparing a lv60 weapon to a current lv99 relic in terms of dmg increase.

I say adjust the curve all around (curve down the delve items a bit though, that's just far too high), though include new trials/quests for REM weapons to give them more power and maybe adjust the ws themselves to be competitive with merit/emp/mythic ws (whichever was stronger per type). Perhaps turn the coin weapons into a trial-able ws addon, so that those have an added purpose (can turn it in to let you use the ws with any other weapon of that type; make something similar for relic ws using maybe a stage4 relic weapon). Upgraded emp is still superior but folks without the resources would have an alternative path to be competitive (at least, for the few good emp ws).

Spoiler: show

Free up the campaign ws

Of course, this completely ignores pet base dmg and magic dmg. Magic will get its update... someday. Pet dmg would need to be scaled up a lot.

It really does look like they were thinking we were lv150+ or so, but forgot we're still lv99. Or really wanted us to stop doing old content. Does that mean they have enough events planned to replace ALL of the old content if they're so hellbent on obsoleting everything?

[Damane]

seriously i am fed up doing old content. whatever drives people to do new content is fine for me. besides the new weapons makes it that much easier to do old content with lesser people.

[Eldelphia]

I just don't understand this move at all. It just doesn't make sense at the moment. Assuming there's something we need to learn about the delve bosses- why completely change their philosophy on weapon progression? I don't know who thought this was a good idea. A friend is a few Nyzul points from his mythic... It's taken him 10 months... playing crazy hours.

[Appie]

Shortly before Adoulin launch I decided to stop paying and maybe return a few months later once shit unlocked in the expansion, but I have to say in a month's time Matsui is doing a great job in killing the idea of me returning to this game. Do whatever you want Matsui, I am just happy I am not funding the bullshit.

[orinthia]

seriously i am fed up doing old content. whatever drives people to do new content is fine for me. besides the new weapons makes it that much easier to do old content with lesser people.

Oh no doubt. If it's all going to be obsoleted with a lot of new events on the horizon, that's fine, but this was pretty extreme to obsolete even an event that was barely a month old, and only because this new stuff wasn't ready at launch (almost seems purposeful). Meebles isn't even that old either and had some interesting drops and fights, and is arguably unfinished in that it's missing the third zone outside jeuno. Wonder if they'll put meeble mobs elsewhere; never saw any while running around getting bivouacs.

[Alkar]

Are the magic changes enough to put mages up there with melees using the new weapons? I don't remember the planned changes being that groundbreaking except for spells no one ever uses. Unless they change magic formulas magic damage will be shit compared to physical damage other than the occasional NM that takes less physical damage or is immune to it for some time.
That's not even counting pets. Their damage was already shit before this update, now those jobs are simply there to fill slots in your Mog House menu.
If only damage ratings had some use on mage weapons or pets...
Seems like they're just throwing updates out of the door with no real testing lately.

[Byrthnoth]

The magic changes were good enough to maybe make magic damage competitive with melee damage in low Haste situations. They would have opened up new playing options. They aren't even close to being competitive with new melee damage.

Long posts on the JP side today.

[Yugl]

Seems they're proposing Delve adjustments for congestion reasons.

1. Status Quo
2. Reduce to roughly 20min ish event
3. Remove rage mode

[Kincard]

Obviously the second one is the best choice, assuming they adjust the strength of the monster accordingly.

[Jem]

Oh no doubt. If it's all going to be obsoleted with a lot of new events on the horizon, that's fine, but this was pretty extreme to obsolete even an event that was barely a month old, and only because this new stuff wasn't ready at launch (almost seems purposeful). Meebles isn't even that old either and had some interesting drops and fights, and is arguably unfinished in that it's missing the third zone outside jeuno. Wonder if they'll put meeble mobs elsewhere; never saw any while running around getting bivouacs.

Which mobs were introduced with Meebles? Definitely seen Maroliths and Panopt in Adoulin. The reskinned mobs from Meebles I've seen too (Leeches, Slimes, Efts plus the Wamoura is a Delve NM).

I think the only Meeble mobs I haven't seen in Adoulin are the Meebles themselves plus the 2 end bosses (Giant Gnat and Yztarg)

Unless of course you just mean the Meeble job family then disregard everything I said!

[jPuff]

I have to imagine that any time something like a SMN/pet buff comes up they wring their hands and talk about how then people will just bring 18 SMN to X-event if they're on par with new melee damage. I'm not saying this is a valid excuse but it seems in line with their thinking given they seem wholly unable to find a middle-ground on anything.

[Slycer]

While I understand how upset people are with this, I'm also somewhat confused. Think back to when the level cap was first raised. I know it didn't take everyone so long, but it took me a good year to finish my complete Morrigan's set, of doing Salvage literally almost every single day (over 150 Powderkegs, etc.). I guarantee that's fivefold more work than anyone has put into a relic weapon since the Dynamis change, and it was immediately invalidated with the armor that was released in Abyssea. Okay, I dealt with it, as did everyone else. This has happened time and time again with various sets of armor, but with Abyssea it basically happened with every piece of hard-earned armor that was obtained pre-Abyssea.

Now they add weapons that eclipse RME weapons, which have had their time in the spotlight for years, and the wrath of the heavens has descended upon Matsui as if he's done something completely unprecedented and totally insane. I mean, really? If you look weapon by weapon:

1) There's no challenge in getting a relic to 99. Get a lot of gil and spend it, or spend a couple months in Dynamis.
2) Mythic have by and large always been useless aside from a select few. This didn't change with TotM. While they are challenging (in terms of the breadth and time requirement to complete the requirements, not the actual difficulty level of course), as has been brought up earlier, they are status icons more than anything else. Either way, mythic owners are the only ones who I feel are really getting the shaft here, especially those who completed their weapon in the past couple of months.
3) Empyreans: see relic
4) I'm not even going to touch on coin weapons, the fact that he even mentioned them in the same sentence as the other three is somewhat insulting.

Considering these points, and the fact that the precedent has been set for stuff getting "useless-ified" in one fell swoop on more than one occasion, is anyone really expecting them to boost RME(C) in any significant way? The weapon skill thing is an appeasement so that people's work isn't totally invalidated, but I wouldn't expect much more than that (and I'm not sure why we're even discussing weapons below level 99 here) barring a mass exodus of (JP) players forcing them to take a second look.


Edit: I'll look at the JP post in a few minutes.

[Byrthnoth]

If they had abandoned Relics or Mythics at 75, I might have agreed with you. As it is, they demonstrated a clear precedence for maintaining the superiority of these weapons when they brought them from 75 to 99, which is why people were willing to work on them during the last 1-2 years without real content. I mean, this has been RME-farming Fantasy XI for the last two years, with a side of Voidwatch and whatever other one-off events SE deems fit to add (Meebles, etc.)

[Terravcota]

Personally, I just don't like that they killed off pretty much every event. Keeping REMs relevant meant you could sell Dyna currency, Alex, HMPs, Cinder/Dross, etc. It was a nice side effect while getting gear and I think some people still did VW/Salvage even if they didn't necessarily need something because of it. I totally agree with Byrth that if they had left them (or even just stopped after the first few trials that just gave shit DMG increases) there would be less rage. Giving you a way to 99 them indicated, to me at least, that they could be kept up with current gear.

Also, if they're totally killing Mythics, I wish they would get rid of the 6 man requirement on Ein and, to a lesser extent, getting to the troll king. It's been hard to find people wanting to go do Ein as it is and I'm pretty sure it's going to be near impossible now. Everything else for Mythics requires 3 (Salvage, Nyzul, Assaults) or less.

PS - Powderkeg sucked balls. That was also the only piece of Morri I was missing and it took probably just as many runs for me to finish. Even if the gear wasn't relevant anymore, it felt awesome to finish it.

[Slycer]

If they had abandoned Relics or Mythics at 75, I might have agreed with you.

Relics took far more time or Gil to finish to 75 when the cap was 75 than they take now to finish from scratch to 99, so I don't really agree, at least for relics. Maybe so for mythic, but the majority of them were always just status symbols more than anything else.

Also, remember there was a time when Emps were first added until trials were added that it very much looked like they were trying to kill off relics and mythics.