Dev Tracker: Discussion (Old)

[Kincard]

Adoulin was revealed at Vana'Fest 2012, which was June 22 2012.

ROM9 had already been in the test server files a few months before that (but nobody spotted it at first) so it might be safe to say they were probably already working on it around March or April 2012.

[Byrthnoth]

And the release of Adoulin is fairly irrelevant considering Relics and Mythics survived both Wings of the Goddess (a full expansion) and raising the level cap from 75 to 99 unscathed.

[Jem]

Wings of the Goddess was released at 75 cap though and a hell of a long time ago so that's irrelevant in my opinion.

The level cap raises involved Relics/Mythics being outclassed by Empyreans and some being made terrible due to Abyssea buffs. It was only after everyone raged that Relics were bumped back up and even that took a while. It wasn't until 99 that they really came back to the forefront against Empys.


My point was that there was a very clear shift in development at the point where they decided to release another expansion. There's a difference between developing for an old game that releases contents in trickles and developing for a game that is releasing a whole new expansion.

[Byrthnoth]

Wings of the Goddess was released at 75 cap though and a hell of a long time ago so that's irrelevant in my opinion.

The level cap raises involved Relics/Mythics being outclassed by Empyreans and some being made terrible due to Abyssea buffs. It was only after everyone raged that Relics were bumped back up and even that took a while. It wasn't until 99 that they really came back to the forefront against Empys.

And how does this relate to the fact that they survived a full expansion and were obviously adjusted to motivate content on the journey from level 75 to 99?

I'm not arguing that replacing them is impossible. I'm arguing that it's not something anyone would have expected given SE's history with the weapons.

[vagus]

I am willing to bet a large majority of EMP users don't have one past 90. SE should have focused on fixing that before releasing all these over the top weapons. 99 Relics are relatively common, but Marrow should be tweaked as well. I just don't understand why SE even bothered to release Delve. The Skirmish system was exciting, decently challenging and really only need the entrance item drop rate to be tweaked. The Delve system seems to be going back to the old ways of requiring a dedicated larger LS. For most on BG that isn't a issue, outside of that though most members have moved on from that. Abyssea have made "HNM" shells a thing of the past. With all the evolving of FFXI in the past years, this new Delve system and the powerful weapons SE has taken a few steps back.

SE should have continued with the R/E/M/C upgrades, and made skirmish weapons closer to the R/E/M/C in terms of base damage. These weapons would weapons for 2nd or 3rd tier jobs.

[Jem]

Because the development cycle completely changed. There is a huge difference between developing for a game that they probably thought was dwindling out and developing for a game with completely new expansion.

They are hardly going to completely overhaul and outclass R/E/M's with content they only release in trickles with no real knowledge of the long-term resources in place for the game. There was the chance for a major overhaul with a completely new expansion.

And they only survived the journey from 75 to 99 after people complained. There was token improvements to Relics/Mythics 80 > 90 but a lot were outclassed by Empyreans. The situation now isn't dissimilar to then apart from the gap is larger. It's not like SE came straight out of the gates and said 'Don't worry guys, your Relics will match Empyreans in future!'. They were pretty apprehensive about it back then too.

EDIT: Yes it goes against how SE have operated but the situation has happened in the past (albeit smaller). It's hard to compare an expansion release now to the older ones because of the massive gap in time between the two and the changes in the development team.

[Jem]

For the record, I don't disagree with you that it was completely unexpected. It was completely out of left field and nobody could have seen it coming.

Just because it was surprising though doesn't mean it's a complete travesty that should never be allowed to happen. The massive gap between those weapons and R/E/M's is an issue, the fact that R/E/M's are being surpassed is not.

EDIT: Also just in case anyone thinks I have this stance because I lack R/E/M's. I had relics at 75 cap, I have 99 weapons now. I'm certainly very much affected by this.

[Slycer]

Just finished translations of posts from Iwagami with some interesting follow-ups about the setup of Delve as far as content level and stuff.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112...=1#post5702106

[Jem]

Those Delve Field NM changes are very interesting. They're basically suggesting we should be able to kill them fine pre-rage. If they start putting time limits on them without weakening them (especially the 20 min time limit) then that's going to rule out a very large amount of the playerbase from being able to kill them.

I'd think a lot of the playerbase needs to make sure they get the KI's from killing them prior to the change just in case a strict time limit is put in place. Would rule out a lot of people from the new weapons/gear.

[Darkmagi]

Sounds like there are a lot of tricks and gimicks to weakening these mobs based on that post.

[Jem]

Yeah, that's also pretty interesting. I'm guessing the difficulty will come down a bit once we nail down their exact gimmicks. I'm guessing there is also negative gimmicks too since we had the Gnat start taking 0 damage from magic that wasn't rage related.

[Byrthnoth]

Yeah, I'm definitely interested in trying to grind out the "wins" for the outside content monsters in the next week.

These monsters should get a lot easier when people figure out how to weaken them, but it isn't like you can /check them and see when they drop 10 Evasion or 1% physical damage taken, so I don't know how exactly we'll tell. It'll have to be something like "I killed the monster with this setup and it was easy" vs. "I killed the monster with this other setup and he was an asshole."

[Jem]

Well like the Cracklaw we did with SAM/THF + BLM's and did SC + MB. By the end he was taking crazy damage even though it was raged (3.5-4k Shield Bashes, 12k Kaitens) but there had been spikes earlier in the fight too so it wasn't a gradual thing. I have no idea how we caused it to happen though because if it was down to the MB's then that certainly wasn't apparent early doors when we were only doing 400 damage MB's.

Some fights were apparent that there was a gimmick involved though. Like the Wamoura who took like 5-10 damage from everything on pop.

[Slycer]

I don't know how exactly we'll tell. It'll have to be something like "I killed the monster with this setup and it was easy" vs. "I killed the monster with this other setup and he was an asshole."

That's almost exactly how his recommendations came across when I read it actually.

Also I don't think they're gonna go with the 20 minute thing. Was a suggestion they added in after the original post which I'm assuming was in response to people saying to get rid of the hyper mode. I didn't browse any of the player feedback though, so I may be wrong.

[Kincard]

Wait, are there not even any !!s or anything appearing when you happen to hit a weakness for Delve or anything like that? That...just...what.

[Kaisha]

Wait, are there not even any !!s or anything appearing when you happen to hit a weakness for Delve or anything like that? That...just...what.

No, because that'd be the smart thing to do, at least from the ones I've seen/died to.

I'm still surprised there's no rage animation on mobs. Even when they were new, I was expecting the generic "Mob used 2hr" effect.

[Slycer]

Also for people concerned about not being able to get the KI if a 20 min limit is implemented - you can get the KI inside and outside the fracture, and NMs inside only have the overall 45 minute time limit and do not go into a hyper mode as far as I can tell.

That said, only the I/II/III NMs are immediately accessible and I'm not sure how much time needs to pass before you can access IV/V without getting rid of the first 3. I'm guessing after 15 minutes walls drop to IV/V and then to the boss after 15 more.

[macross]

If you don't have a 99 weapon by now, then why are you even complaining. Be happy you can easily get a new weapon that beats it. You never had the best anyways, now you can with less effort.

[Jem]

I think for the people without 99's who are complaining, it's less about their R/E being outclassed and more that they won't get whatever 'fix' is applied to the R/E/M's in future because their weapons are incomplete.


I think the IV/V only become accessible after ~15 minutes in Slycer like you say if you wait purely on the timer. I'd think a lot of people would still struggle to kill them in 30 mins if that is the case.

[macross]

yeah jem, but they never had a 99, the new weapons are > than their 85-90s already, thus they are already fixed. Sub99 were never ever the best. So when 99 get upgraded they will be the best, the sub 99 people can get the current stuff which is still > than their rems, but still under an upgrade rem.

Put in some work and get them to 99 and you can happily upgrade them along with those of use who already have shrug, the options still there to do so. People said mythics were impossible but I still made one pre salv2. I worked hard on it, so can others. If you don't want to go that extra mile, well you shouldnt' complain, just be happy you will still have a relevant weapon, even if it's not the best, not like you had the best in the first place.