Dev Tracker: Discussion (Old)

[Byrthnoth]

Not to mention that aside from complicating the user experience, it's literally impossible to perform as optimally as you could be. The self imposed delays are slowing down your output over time-- and pretty dramatically, I'd wager

This is true. However well you think you're playing without windower macros, you could be playing better with them because they let you swap gear faster.

[Therin]

Honestly curious by this. What do you do then? Do you weight your gear swaps, and only swap the 7 most influential pieces, or do you use multiple macros to swap to your sets? That was ultimately my reason for going to Windower scripts. Early on, its easy to make due when you've only got a few pieces worth subbing in, but as you build more, you hit a breaking point where one macro just isn't enough, then eventually two isn't even enough. By time I switched, I was using 5 macros simply to WS and switch back to my TP set.

Yes, every Catastrophe is five macros (two for WS set, one for WS, two for TP set). I have fast and dexterous fingers.. or so I've been told.

For me, ALT1 and ALT2 is my WS gear. ALT3 is Cata, ALT4 and ALT5 my TP gear. For Entropy it's mirrored on the CTRL line. I have a different macro set entirely for Great Sword obviously that basically mirrors my Scythe set, a different set for Scourge and Resolution. I also have quick gearswap macros for Hybrid TP, Full PDT, Full Accuracy and Full Dark Magic Skill (though a lot of my Dark Magic gear is not optimized anymore, most of it is circa-2010 so I don't use it that much).

I could be slightly more efficient using the scripts and sometimes I will end up TPing in a STR ring or something (swapping back to my Mars's is the last line on my first TP set macro so if I hit the second macro too quickly sometimes it won't change the ring). This requires you to tap that last TP macro an extra once or twice while you're building TP for the next WS. That's the only problem I have with it. Not saying I couldn't parse 1-2% better with scripted macros (I probably would) but I'm already in the top 3 of every parse and have been in every shell I've been in, even with Apathy's insanely pimped melees back in 2009-2011. I'm not trying to brag or sit on a high horse (I use pretty much every other 3PP out there) I'm just saying that Windower macros and scripts aren't necessary for DDs, they're just more convenient.

I would definitely start using scripts if I played support mage jobs (SCH, BRD, RDM, etc.), I must say. The benefits for these jobs are just too good. (The only mage is play is BLM and an alt WHM.)

[Kyte]

If you're already using Windower and whatnot, I just don't understand why you would want to not at least use Windower scripts for macros, if not spellcast.

[Michelob]

I did that for years, Therin. The game is just much more enjoyable hitting one macro for an action in the end. Not to mention when you have only one macro for WS (which works for both scythe and gswd), one macro for pdt, one for mdt, you'd be amazed at all the additional stuff you can macro. Echos, temps, panacea... much less cumbersome than trudging through menus or typing it out.

[Therin]

If you're already using Windower and whatnot, I just don't understand why you would want to not at least use Windower scripts for macros, if not spellcast.

Mostly just being old school. I've never converted to them and I like my macros the way they are now, so I'd be opposed to changing anything. Even knowing that it's probably faster. Hell, I might even get bored with not having to push so many buttons. Hahaha. Back in the days of HNMs, I used to play PLD almost completely manually - no macros at all except for a Full Haste (for Utsu/TP) and Full Enmity (for Flash, etc.) set.

Reminds me of FFXIV 1.X... the menus and battle system are so much more busy and require a lot more input than FFXI. It's probably why I enjoyed it a lot more.

[noodles355]

For the feeling of superiority it seems to grant him.

[Therin]

For the feeling of superiority it seems to grant him.

Yes, totally.

I also use a 4+ year old Windower install. Fuck this newfangled Windower 4 crap. I am so superior it hurts.

[noodles355]

Yes, totally.

Well you appear to be using the "You don't need it" argument as a guise for the "I don't need it because I'm awesome" argument.

[Kyte]

As someone who was a little late to start converting (switched to scripts in ~Summer 2009, Spellcast shortly after Scars of Abyssea's release), I really think you should at least give it a try. A friend of mine recently converted as well and he doesn't understand why he didn't sooner.

[Malithar]

I could be slightly more efficient using the scripts and sometimes I will end up TPing in a STR ring or something (swapping back to my Mars's is the last line on my first TP set macro so if I hit the second macro too quickly sometimes it won't change the ring). This requires you to tap that last TP macro an extra once or twice while you're building TP for the next WS.

This was exactly why I switched. It didn't come down to a matter of suck less or setup your macros better, it came down to SE's terrible client delay making you take 5+ seconds (I attempted to give .5-1 sec per macro, fucking up mid way just kinda ruined the whole point of even bothering) to go through all of that. In capped haste situations with Fighter's Roll, by time I managed to switch in my gear and WS, I was at or near 200 TP. Came down to more of an optimization step for me. I didn't mind hitting 5 macros to WS. Sure, it was cumbersome, but as you said, it gives you something to do. But when I'm burning away TP, swing time, and the tiny windows you have to act in some situations so I can hit a bunch of macros for one action (and switching back to TP set), enough was enough.

As another poster said too, when you've got all 20 easily reachable macros filled with the bare essentials, you no longer have space for situational sets. Being able to have WS, TP, -PDT, -MDT, hybrid, JAs, consumables, idle, etc sets all easily added to the base set of 20 macros, it just makes life so much easier. I remember attempting to make it work prior to going with scripts, and it was just a nightmare switching macro pallets. Hit the wrong button and suddenly you're lost within the 20 books attempting to get back to your book. Never mind the lag that accompanies it sometimes (hit up, doesn't switch, hit up again, goes up 3 books...wtf?)

Not trying to steer you away from what works for you, just blows my mind that you could use and enjoy all the other third party tools, yet you stick with base SE macros.

[Jem]

No matter how good you are or how quick you are with your fingers, there's no way you can replicate something like Nightfyre's DRK spellcast with just built-in macros. That's not a sleight on you, it's just not possible for anyone to micromanage that well and efficiently. I don't think 10 palettes would be enough macros to cover all the possibilities, not to mention the logistical nightmare of where to place everything.

[dejet]

forget that, normal macros fail at times and have to much of a delay. You can not really just spam the normal macros without losing something.

I get away with just windower macros for nin and blm(well blm mostly due to it being a proc whore only for what I do)

pld blu what not all need spellcast or its just crazy. I dont think I could make macros for every damn spell set I have...

[noodles355]

forget that, normal macros fail at times

Fucking hate that. I've taken to putting /echo lines into pretty much every single macro I have to make sure the damn thing has fired.

[dejet]

if anything se could wipe away the use of some 3rd party users by just fixing their macros. Make a new system with no limit. Id never move over still due to the fact that I dont think blu can be played with macros alone; it just can not be done if you want to optimize it.

My blu is just a notch above crap and I have like 7 gear sets for it.

[Therin]

In capped haste situations with Fighter's Roll, by time I managed to switch in my gear and WS, I was at or near 200 TP.

See, I can't say I've ever really had that problem. At most if I'm a little slow I will get an extra attack swing in (which could be 1-2 attacks at ~17 TP per hit) but for the most part it's just a case of anticipating your TP and being ready to hit the macros. Most parses I'm doing 30-50% more WSes than the other DRKs usually so it must not be affecting me as badly as people are suggesting. I have a religious addiction to WSing as soon as I hit 100% because it's usually Catastrophe that is keeping me alive.

The concept of being able to macro situational items such as Echo Drops and Remedies as well as all of the lesser-used or longer recast JAs that I normally activate from the menu (Dread Spikes, Endark, Sekkanoki, Diabolic Eye, Dark Seal, Scarlet Delirium, etc.) definitely interests me though. I also usually use the menu to manually toggle Hasso/Seigan/Third Eye apart from the initial Seigan/Third Eye application as well, as it makes it easier to immediately hit Third Eye as soon as it's ready, but with a spellcast set I could probably do that more efficiently too. I definitely can see the benefits of it so I may try to set it up for some macros later on.

Something that always turned me off of the idea was how reliant people became on spellcast. This is noticeable when version updates break it and everyone around you is crying, "oh noes, I can't play because spellcast doesn't work." (I've actually seen people say this...)

[Kyte]

It's not so much that they can't play, it's that setting up entirely new macros just for a couple of days or less until spellcast gets fixed is incredibly annoying.

[Taint]

Being awesome at Standard Macros is like being awesome at driving a Civic. You might feel badass with your ricer can exhaust but a decent driver in an M3 is going to beat you every time.


I played with 3 button WS macros on DRK for years before switching to Windower macros and the increase in performance is ten fold. Now that I'm piecing together SC scripts its taken the ability to play my jobs to a different level.

I don't care how badass you are with your keyboard wizardry a Shetland pony is never winning the Kentucky Derby.

[pancakesandsex]

See, I can't say I've ever really had that problem. At most if I'm a little slow I will get an extra attack swing in (which could be 1-2 attacks at ~17 TP per hit) but for the most part it's just a case of anticipating your TP and being ready to hit the macros. Most parses I'm doing 30-50% more WSes than the other DRKs usually so it must not be affecting me as badly as people are suggesting. I have a religious addiction to WSing as soon as I hit 100% because it's usually Catastrophe that is keeping me alive.

The concept of being able to macro situational items such as Echo Drops and Remedies as well as all of the lesser-used or longer recast JAs that I normally activate from the menu (Dread Spikes, Endark, Sekkanoki, Diabolic Eye, Dark Seal, Scarlet Delirium, etc.) definitely interests me though. I also usually use the menu to manually toggle Hasso/Seigan/Third Eye apart from the initial Seigan/Third Eye application as well, as it makes it easier to immediately hit Third Eye as soon as it's ready, but with a spellcast set I could probably do that more efficiently too. I definitely can see the benefits of it so I may try to set it up for some macros later on.

Something that always turned me off of the idea was how reliant people became on spellcast. This is noticeable when version updates break it and everyone around you is crying, "oh noes, I can't play because spellcast doesn't work." (I've actually seen people say this...)

I tend to shy away from spellcast for similar reasons (though I will probably wind up using it for certain jobs eventually). Script macros almost never break though, and you can start by using them to simply consolidate gear swaps to single lines for simple shit like weaponskills.

/console exec "ws set.txt"
/ws weaponskill <t> <wait 1>
/console exec "tp set.txt"

It's a lot more manageable.

[Byrthnoth]

Being better than your friends has never been a reasonable justification for avoiding improvement. Once you figured out how to write windower macros, it would take you all of 30 minutes to convert your entire DRK macro set to windower macros and you'd never look back.

Sample:

input /equip ammo "Item Name Here" <me>;
input /equip head "Item Name Here" <me>;
input /equip neck "Item Name Here" <me>;
input /equip ear1 "Item Name Here" <me>;
input /equip ear2 "Item Name Here" <me>;
input /equip body "Item Name Here" <me>;
input /equip hands "Item Name Here" <me>;
input /equip ring1 "Item Name Here" <me>;
input /equip ring2 "Item Name Here" <me>;
input /equip back "Item Name Here" <me>;
input /equip waist "Item Name Here" <me>;
input /equip legs "Item Name Here" <me>;
input /equip feet "Item Name Here" <me>;

[noodles355]

Most parses I'm doing 30-50% more WSes than the other DRKs usually so it must not be affecting me as badly as people are suggesting.

The first thing you should do is stop talking about parsing against other players as if it means absolutely anything at all, because it doesn't.


The long and short of it is that if you already use windower there is no reason whatsoever to use vanilla macros over extended macro scripts. I'm not talking spellcast or autoexec or aecho or anything like that. I'm talking about replacing this:

Macro 1:
/equip head "WSItem"
/equip neck "WSItem"
/equip l.ear "WSItem"
/equip R.ear "WSItem"
/equip body "WSItem"
/equip hands "WSItem"

Macro 2:
/equip l.ring "WSItem"
/equip R.ring "WSItem"
/equip back "WSItem"
/equip waist "WSItem"
/equip legs "WSItem"
/equip feet "WSItem"

Macro 3:
/ws "Catastrophe" <t>

Macro 4:
/equip head "TPItem"
/equip neck "TPItem"
/equip l.ear "TPItem"
/equip R.ear "TPItem"
/equip body "TPItem"
/equip hands "TPItem"

Macro 5:
/equip l.ring "TPItem"
/equip R.ring "TPItem"
/equip back "TPItem"
/equip waist "TPItem"
/equip legs "TPItem"
/equip feet "TPItem"

With this:

Macro 1:
//exec Catastrophe.txt
/ws "Catastrophe" <t>

Macro 2:
//exec TPGear.txt

And then making two text files Catastrophe.txt and TPGear.txt with the following text:

Spoiler: show

Catastrophe.txt

input equip head "WSItem";
input equip neck "WSItem";
input equip l.ear "WSItem";
input equip R.ear "WSItem";
input equip body "WSItem";
input equip hands "WSItem";
input equip l.ring "WSItem";
input equip R.ring "WSItem";
input equip back "WSItem";
input equip waist "WSItem";
input equip legs "WSItem";
input equip feet "WSItem";

TPGear.txt

input equip head "TPItem";
input equip neck "TPItem";
input equip l.ear "TPItem";
input equip R.ear "TPItem";
input equip body "TPItem";
input equip hands "TPItem";
input equip l.ring "TPItem";
input equip R.ring "TPItem";
input equip back "TPItem";
input equip waist "TPItem";
input equip legs "TPItem";
input equip feet "TPItem";

The only reason to not do this is because you enjoy the thought that you're superior because you can do the same thing as someone else using 5 button presses when they use two. Note that I am not judging you on that if it is the case.

Edit: Hopefully in this post you see just exactly how simpleit is to use extended windower macros. There is no code. All you do is make a text document and pretend it's a macro with an infinite number of lines instead of just 6. Then put everything you would put in your macros (including spells, abilities, etc if you want) in it, replacing the "/" at the start with "input ", and adding a ";" at the end of each line.