Dev Tracker: Discussion (Old)

[Khamsin]

Our pets do far less damage than any other pet, player, or entity. Our pets have less HP than any other pet, player, or entity. We can do less actions with our pet. If we resummon our pet the enemy still comes and hits us in the face which, I should note, we have the lowest defense of any class in the game. Also the pet AI is rubbish on top of all that.

So no, our pets are not "a bit stronger than every other class all in 1." You have no idea what you are talking about.

He made a simple mistake. He meant stronger than every other class except MNK and PUP. And I think he meant compared to a naked, unbuffed, unmeritted player. Although I'm not entirely certain how an avatar stacks up to a naked player (that doesn't have innate H2H skill), either in melee damage potential, or survivability. Although avatars do take 50% physical damage, and generally will survive longer than any naked, unbuffed, and uncured player will... except for obvious cases, like MNK or THF.

Though I suppose all of this misses the larger point, which is avatars cannot be buffed to the extent that players can, so in the case of SMN where the pet represents all of the SMN's power (versus PUP or BST where it's split between master and pet), they can't compare to other jobs except in certain niche roles.

[Toth]

The job is going to really benefit from the new SP when it gets realized. 30 seconds of stunage or mega damage in conjunction with a slightly weaker PD. It's not a fix for the job but it will be nice to help our damage input/ utility on harder fights.

[Kincard]

Back when enmity actually mattered it was kinda cool that a SMN could do big magic damage numbers with basically no hate. Then they released PUP, and now they have a low-recast resummon for their puppets so I'm pretty sure a PUP can outdo a SMN in that regard.

SMN's become a really weird hybrid mage job that has a bit of everything. They can buff and debuff, they can do decent magic damage, they can cure and do status removal...but most of it isn't something that's good enough to warrant a SMN taking up a slot.

[dasva]

Our pets do far less damage than any other pet, player, or entity. Our pets have less HP than any other pet, player, or entity. We can do less actions with our pet. If we resummon our pet the enemy still comes and hits us in the face which, I should note, we have the lowest defense of any class in the game. Also the pet AI is rubbish on top of all that.

So no, our pets are not "a bit stronger than every other class all in 1." You have no idea what you are talking about.

You must have missed the part I said about buffs and gearing... regardless I don't know about pup but avatars do a whole lot more dmg than bst pets. Bst and pup generally make up the difference in there melee dmg when they are allowed to. Which is basically pretty much only solo so also not benefitting from buffs. If it's not safe to get close they kinda suck. Bst pets will still have decent survivability but dmg (and hate) will fail hard. Pup can choose between having a pet that can actually survive or one that can actually do dmg. So if they have real tanks keeping hate they can probably keep up with smn with the hateless nukes especailly if they have KKK so they can actually boost them.... though they wont really be able to buff/debuff/stun like smn

I haven't checked the hp of lvl 99 avatars but I'm pretty sure it's more than the 1100 my taru whm sits at they also have superiour physical and magical defenses compared to other pets. Define less actions. How exactly is 2 Bps ever 45 seconds less than 1 move from bst every 1-3 minutes (and even then only if they have tp) less? Especially when you consider the lvl of usefulness of bps versus bst pet moves lol. And pup is pretty dependent on AI which is rather lame and dependent on manuevers and not overloading.

True the mob smashes you in the face if you are close enough to get smashed. But smn unlike other pet jobs doesn't require you to use yourself to smash the mob so you have no emnity and can be (and should be) farther from the mob and other pets don't auto attack your aggro like smn does. Plus enemies with weird hate will still attack/draw in bsts no matter how many times I snarl . Nor will smn ever have to run around with a like a chicken with it's head cut off waiting for recast timers like bst or have to pull out a nearly dead pet like pup

Look at it this way as far as pet jobs go. When is the last time you saw a pup or bst get to do anything other than solo or just to fill a slot as a body or for weird shells like monstersinc? On the other hand smn has always had some kind of role in a group. Though not always good enough to bring over another job especially if low manned.

[Tarage]

You must have missed the part I said about buffs and gearing... regardless I don't know about pup but avatars do a whole lot more dmg than bst pets.

Stopped reading there. You're wrong. That statement is wrong. You have no idea what you are talking about.

[Spira]

You must have missed the part I said about buffs and gearing... regardless I don't know about pup but avatars do a whole lot more dmg than bst pets. Bst and pup generally make up the difference in there melee dmg when they are allowed to. Which is basically pretty much only solo so also not benefitting from buffs. If it's not safe to get close they kinda suck. Bst pets will still have decent survivability but dmg (and hate) will fail hard. Pup can choose between having a pet that can actually survive or one that can actually do dmg. So if they have real tanks keeping hate they can probably keep up with smn with the hateless nukes especailly if they have KKK so they can actually boost them.... though they wont really be able to buff/debuff/stun like smn

I haven't checked the hp of lvl 99 avatars but I'm pretty sure it's more than the 1100 my taru whm sits at they also have superiour physical and magical defenses compared to other pets. Define less actions. How exactly is 2 Bps ever 45 seconds less than 1 move from bst every 1-3 minutes (and even then only if they have tp) less? Especially when you consider the lvl of usefulness of bps versus bst pet moves lol. And pup is pretty dependent on AI which is rather lame and dependent on manuevers and not overloading.

True the mob smashes you in the face if you are close enough to get smashed. But smn unlike other pet jobs doesn't require you to use yourself to smash the mob so you have no emnity and can be (and should be) farther from the mob and other pets don't auto attack your aggro like smn does. Plus enemies with weird hate will still attack/draw in bsts no matter how many times I snarl . Nor will smn ever have to run around with a like a chicken with it's head cut off waiting for recast timers like bst or have to pull out a nearly dead pet like pup

Look at it this way as far as pet jobs go. When is the last time you saw a pup or bst get to do anything other than solo or just to fill a slot as a body or for weird shells like monstersinc? On the other hand smn has always had some kind of role in a group. Though not always good enough to bring over another job especially if low manned.

as someone who has played all the jobs mentioned, and been in MonstersInc, i can safely say you have no idea what you're talking about.
BST pets don't require Ready to function well, they're bonuses. They're good on damage just from DoT alone.

PUPs don't work as well in pet-based parties as one might expect and are generally less reliable than BST and SMN for physical and magical damage respectively

[Chamaan]

I had a great big post with breakdowns and stuff about how pup performs in large group environments (nothing as hard as Legion, just up to old 18-man VW before they became a joke) but even I got kind of bored reading it. I'll just tl;dw myself and say that an Automaton can go melee and perform very well until AoE damage starts happening, which starts a kind of downward spiral of shit that Smn and Bst don't seem to suffer from. You can also go blm-puppet and do the bread and butter double-cast we're known for, but after that initial wad you're spent and you're in the same recast timer Hell that BP-damage only Smns are in (and at least Smn can choose damage type instead of just Thunder V every time unless the timer is down or you're low on MP).

And Pup AI isn't a problem if you're comfortable with it. If anything I wish AI was MORE complicated. You want to make a serious Pup happy? Stick a single line in update notes that only reads "Automaton AI has been altered" and watch us do every goddamn thing we can think of to debug it.

[Taim Meich]

Yeah, neither the AI nor Overload are a problem now for PUPs.

The worst AI was the mage automaton's, and that one got revamped recently so that it doesn't -na you to death -literally-. Okay, the AI was pretty much untouched, but by splitting and shortening the recasts of different magic groups, the behavior of the automaton started to make sense. The rest of the AI issues can be handle pretty well with proper maneuver usage.

And Overload... Well, that's a thing of the past. Any sensible PUP will macro in the neck, hands and body Burden reducing pieces, and just with that, Overload can only be achieved if you stack three maneuvers of the same element, one after another, just after activating, and without equipment to surpass the automaton's stats. Just not meeting one of the above conditions, in addition to using the burden reducing items, is enough to never see an Overload again.

The problems of PUP are pet survivability (specially in the age of Fanatics and Perfect Defense), maneuvers reducing master damage via JA delay (and at the same time, being often necessary for a proper automaton use), and a total lack of tools to perform well in zergs, which is, as for now, the main strategy on 90% of the endgame content.

That, plus the common issues with other pet jobs (can't buff the pets so they are left behind in high buff situations, enmity is a joke so split hate is useless) are what hinder PUP the most, not the AI nor Overloading.

[dejet]

I somewhat feel he thinks a smn can out DD a bst LOL

a bst can fight along side the pet just fine. 99% of my fights on bst I DD just fine. Combo that with my pets DoT and my bst on all mobs in the aby can come damn close to total DoT of that of a heavy DD.

I cant find the logs right now but I was messing around with it when we went briareus hunting. '

drk, bst, war, thf, whm(rdm i forget what job my mule was at the time)

flat out owned the thf, went back and forth with the drk and lost to the war a decent amount. Some of the weaker NMs Where my pets DoT would spike because of the lower def I even out DDed the war.

Bst is no joke on lesser mobs, end game? idk never took it into current end game events. Just low man stuff. Smn blows and needs help for even the aby let alone end game events.

edit: what is wrong with their buffs/cure system is that you cant have everything at once. You need to have out what avatar you feel will be the most help. Recalling pets just takes to much time and lowers DoT, and the key to most fights is not drawing them out; its owning them as fast as you can so the crazy AoEs wont rape the PT.

[dasva]

I think alot of what I read was misread. I said that just the comparing pet to pet dmg. Is that completely wrong? Everything I've seen has shown avatar melee to be close enough to lol bst that bps should put it in the lead. What are the comparative melee stats then?

Obviously the others make up for that and some when you dd along side your pet especially if you are getting buffs. But that goes back to the wish of having 2 strong PCs. bst and pup basically get that. But at the cost of kinda sucking when you can't and not getting any real group play use. I like my jugs they make great tanks for me and add a little bit of dmg especailly on low lvl stuff (though a bit of that is due to weird pet pdif stuff) but against anything strong especially things you'd want to stay out of range for it's melee dmg is a rather weak and reminds of the old boring dot kiting.

[Spira]

there isn't much to be said about the efficacy of either job at true 99 endgame events, but BST pull ahead of SMN in terms of pet damage alone. the DoT that they deal can also be supplemented effectively by gear that provide the pet with haste/atk/acc/da/etc.

move towards 75 endgame events and bst pulls much further ahead.

[fantasticdan]

I think alot of what I read was misread. I said that just the comparing pet to pet dmg. Is that completely wrong?

Yes lol. Jug pets do significantly more melee DoT than avatars, BPs do not make up the difference. I don't know about the stat differences, but I can tell you for sure a garuda meleeing and doing predator claws on cooldown does notably less damage over time than a bst that just sicks his pet on something and goes afk.

[Damane]

I think alot of what I read was misread. I said that just the comparing pet to pet dmg. Is that completely wrong? Everything I've seen has shown avatar melee to be close enough to lol bst that bps should put it in the lead. What are the comparative melee stats then?

Obviously the others make up for that and some when you dd along side your pet especially if you are getting buffs. But that goes back to the wish of having 2 strong PCs. bst and pup basically get that. But at the cost of kinda sucking when you can't and not getting any real group play use. I like my jugs they make great tanks for me and add a little bit of dmg especailly on low lvl stuff (though a bit of that is due to weird pet pdif stuff) but against anything strong especially things you'd want to stay out of range for it's melee dmg is a rather weak and reminds of the old boring dot kiting.

did you ever play BST with the new jugpets? an Avatar cant keep up with that dmg. Jugpets DoT is insane on lower level stuff (how it fairs in stuff like legion dont know), it wrecks shit in seconds.

[noodles355]

the DoT that they deal can also be supplemented effectively by gear that provide the pet with haste/atk/acc/da/etc.

Smn doesn't get such gear?
AF+1/AF2+2/AF3+2 have a bunch of Avatar stats too, Then there's the ACP/MKD/ASA add-on augmented items, doesn't the Pet: XX from them work on avatars too? Then there's the wealth of other Avatar: and Pet: gear in the game.

[noodles355]

did you ever play BST with the new jugpets? an Avatar cant keep up with that dmg. Jugpets DoT is insane on lower level stuff (how it fairs in stuff like legion dont know), it wrecks shit in seconds.

Inversely, don't Avatars perform better on higher level stuff due to their weird pDif thingy or ignore-defense (maybe that was drg wyvern...) or whatever?

Ftr, Bst is my only non 49+ job (10) and Pup and Smn still aren't unlocked. Just so people don't think I'm some sort of smn fanboy or whatever.

[fantasticdan]

Smn doesn't get such gear?
AF+1/AF2+2/AF3+2 have a bunch of Avatar stats too, Then there's the ACP/MKD/ASA add-on augmented items, doesn't the Pet: XX from them work on avatars too? Then there's the wealth of other Avatar: and Pet: gear in the game.

Pet: attack doesn't do much thou, and bst gets more pet haste on gear, +10% magic haste for 40 minutes per hour from augmented af2+2 legs, and jugs hit significantly harder to begin with. Jugs also have war or thf job traits going for them, while avatars are all blms IIRC.

I'm not sure about avatar vs jug melee damage on high level stuff, but avatar accuracy is pretty damn bad on high tier voidwatch.

[Slycer]

How did this SMN conversation even start? lol

Anyway, something on topic - there were a few dev posts on the JP side today, but really nothing worth translating. The only post with any substance was one from Matsui responding to a player's post about how Matsui, in his post yesterday, failed to mention bringing any new adventurers to Vana'diel (he said their focus would be on current players and bringing back ones who left). Matsui's response is nothing unexpected, he said that of course they would like to encourage new players to join as well, but the first focus will be on expanding and adjusting content for current players, then on adjusting content and difficulty to make it easier for old players to return (i.e. they have no plan to add any low-level content in the near future).

[Spira]

i seem to remember reading some testing on zam forums about this.. avatars have roughly half the base damage of jug pets. they're mostly blms (i think carby is whm and diabolos drk tho) as opposed to melee jobs on jugs like war and the occasional thf.
avatar attack on smn gear doesn't affect normal melee attacks and BPs dont deal enough dmg to pace ahead of BSTs

[dasva]

Oh yeah new jugs wreck eps... but they fail on stronger and I could care less about weak enemies. Really the main problem with all pets is while the stats start out overall higher then players there is hardly any ways to improve them in anyway. While inversely players can improve there abilities in pretty much everyway in every slot and all kinds of buffs. Hell half the game is putting the right buffs and gear for the right situation and improving and getting more situational stuff and switching at the right times. At the very least I don't see why we can't cast the same things we can on our traveling companion npc as them. Would allow them to scale at least a little bit better.

[Byrthnoth]

i seem to remember reading some testing on zam forums about this.. avatars have roughly half the base damage of jug pets. they're mostly blms (i think carby is whm and diabolos drk tho) as opposed to melee jobs on jugs like war and the occasional thf.

avatar attack on smn gear doesn't affect normal melee attacks and BPs dont deal enough dmg to pace ahead of BSTs

This is not true, but the level 99 celestial avatars probably do have 76 STR, ~320 delay, 520-530 attack if you use melee pDIF equations (which are wrong for pets/monsters but all we have) and 55 base damage. That's approximately comparable to a level 75 DRK single-wielding an axe.

With no way to augment their STR, this means avatars are running negative fSTR against almost everything in the game.