Dev Tracker: Discussion (Old)

[Ophannus]

Oh nvm it was Proth

[Kincard]

Then 3 years from now it will be like 2012 again where 5 one handed jobs are complaining about not being the top damage dealers (but leaving out that they can cast blue magic, or do dance steps, or evade and treasure hunter, or something else that pure DD can't do.) And the cycle will go on and on.

For me, I don't have a problem that some jobs can do more damage than other jobs. I have a problem that the gap is so massive that it's completely retarded to bring anything but WAR and DRK to fight high level monsters. Besides, while BLUs have blue magic, THFs have TH and etc, you could also say that WARs are the most effective area killers and DRKs have unique dark magic spells. Pretty much every job has something unique to them that doesn't involve DPS.

If you work it out, the changes actually favor lower tier spells in terms of DPS. Like, post-adjustment Tier 4 DPS is going to exceed Tier 5 DPS at reasonable levels of dINT. Considering that we have access to sources of huge casting time reduction now, it's going to be interesting to see how this plays out. RDM might be back in business?

I imagine you running into the post-cast delay continuously will be a problem, though I guess it'd needs to be mathed out. I think magic should get a post-use delay reduction similar to the one that ranged attacks got.

I think Byrth mentioned on an FFXIAH post that if they adjusted the level correction for 1h that they'd rank pretty close to WAR or DRK in Legion in similarly buffed situations.

For the moment it sounds like he's planning on only making ratio adjustments to the main hand, so if that was the case this adjustment would help but probably not put 1Hs anywhere near the top. I'll definitely take it though.

[Byrthnoth]

Main-hand only would be unfortunate, but it still affects the majority of our WS damage. I WS once every 7~11 seconds on DNC with capped delay (average around 9) and AM3 up and it currently pulls about 50% of my damage. (inb4 someone points out Monk only has a main hand weapon)

The post-cast delay is problematic, but it's not going to be realistic to chain nuke indefinitely even with the MP adjustments. Unless . . . . https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Seidr_Cotehardie

[Ophannus]

I don't see why not especially for SCH/RDM and RDM/SCH...between Convert+Sublimation on the former and craptons of refresh/convert on the latter and both have parsimony/conserve MP. BLM/RDM can nuke for a while too with 'vert. BLM needs a 5min recast JA that deals non-elemental damage and converts damage to MP. Call the ability Rake, costs 5mp, deals unresistable Chi Blast-esque damage dealing 250-400 damage and acts like Spirit Taker, works on undead. BLM is the only job without some primary form of MP regeneration unless you count Aspir/Spirit Taker...although by extension neither does WHM although Mystic Boon is pretty badass but WHM's cures aren't as MP intensive as BLM's nukes.

[Kincard]

Whatever the case I'm very excited to see these changes go live. It's about time they addressed these major concerns, holy shit.

[Jurist]

For me, I don't have a problem that some jobs can do more damage than other jobs. I have a problem that the gap is so massive that it's completely retarded to bring anything but WAR and DRK to fight high level monsters. Besides, while BLUs have blue magic, THFs have TH and etc, you could also say that WARs are the most effective area killers and DRKs have unique dark magic spells. Pretty much every job has something unique to them that doesn't involve DPS.

You're right though DRK do have magic but...

"Except WAR is a killer" = WAR is a DPS job. Now please mention some unique trait that job has that doesn't involve doing damage?

[Kincard]

"Except WAR is a killer" = WAR is a DPS job. Now please mention some unique trait that job has that doesn't involve doing damage?

I said area damage, which is something pretty much no other job can accomplish as effectively as WAR can (Mostly thanks to retaliation, though fell cleave is probably the most powerful physical AE weapon skill in the game. The other decently strong ones are magic ones like Aoelian Edge and Cataclysm). WAR also has amazing flexibility among their weapon choices due to high skill across most of the board.

And, if they implement that proposed defense adjustment correctly, WAR might actually be a somewhat useful tank again (They mentioned also upping Defender's defense bonus).

[Selamis]

Not sure how I feel about this Last Resort/Desperate Blows adjustment, will have to wait for the official translation to come in but I dunno, I'm going to be very mad if this in any way ends up being a nerf to my drk.

[Mahoro]

Whatever the case I'm very excited to see these changes go live. It's about time they addressed these major concerns, holy shit.

Agreed. Matsui's influence is definitely being felt now in ways it wasn't when he first started out.

[Ophannus]

I said area damage, which is something pretty much no other job can accomplish as effectively as WAR can (Mostly thanks to retaliation, though fell cleave is probably the most powerful physical AE weapon skill in the game. The other decently strong ones are magic ones like Aoelian Edge and Cataclysm). WAR also has amazing flexibility among their weapon choices due to high skill across most of the board.

More or less. Sonic Thrust is actually a stronger WS overall though it's linear not radial so it takes a bit of legwork and a wall/mountain on your rightside to align them. BLU is actually better at AoEing even outside of Abyssea, when properly geared, CW and CAFlux Whirl of Rage both do about 2500ish. WAR cleaving outside of abyssea is actually quite dangerous unless you have a healer or something, WARs are very squishy whereas a BLU or BLM can sleepga->nuke. Hell on DRG when I do Limbus can gather all the mobs on a floor, line them up against a wall and sonic thrust them and just healing breath myself every 10 seconds or so for 1200. In abyssea though I suppose WAR is a better area damage job in terms of laziness and for EXP(just stand there and spam your macro) though BLU is more efficient and cleaner--one spell and everything is dead

[Slycer]

Feel free to review my translation if you want the full text, but looks like you guys hit all the key notes already.

[fantasticdan]

Not increasing the merit WS cap is still bullshit, even if this is a big improvement over what it was.

I said area damage, which is something pretty much no other job can accomplish as effectively as WAR can

Blu.

[Byrthnoth]

One thing from your translation that really didn't come through when I was reading google translate is how "decided" these changes are. Based on your translation, it seems like 1H ratio adjustments are somewhat up in the air but the rest of it is solid. That's awesome.

[Ophannus]

Seems like they want to change the flow of BLM from "nuke for big damage every 10-15 seconds" to "deal light damage every 5 seconds if you desire or big damage every 10-15 seconds". In a way, the new adjustments to BLM being proposed makes BLM more like a melee job. You can nuke every 2 seconds with a Tier I or Tier II(0.5s cast, 2s recast) and that's like your "Auto-Attack" then after several nukes, if you choose, you can drop a Tier IV or Tier V as your 'WS' for larger damage. So maybe you'll see BLMs casting Thunder I for 225 damage every 2 seconds for 30 seconds then drop a Thunder V for 2570 as their 'WS'. Kinda interesting, it makes BLM feel more aggressive and alive to continuously cast weak nukes for DoT then drop a larger nuke here and there for spike damage rather than how it is now -- run around -- buff --- afk for 2 minutes -- cast a huge nuke for massive damage -- refrain from nuking so you don't pull too much hate, etc..

[TheDangerousDave]

SAM/DRK 25% JA Haste go!!!

[Ophannus]

Dude DRK/SAM is already strong but now SAM/DRK.... I wish somehow LR and Hasso were mutually exclusive and unstackable. WAR and DRG don't have native attack speed buffs =(

[Slycer]

Added magic value tables. The MP efficiency of stone/water nukes is gonna be ridiculous compared to what they used to be. I guess that's a good thing, though, since there used to be no reason to cast them. Agree with Ophannus on the new utility of tier I nukes, could really change things for BLM.

[Spira]

wow. the changes intended for elemental magic are major. i'm really glad they're standardizing things like cast and recast time within tiers, and also retaining elemental superiority but closing the gaps within the same tier, which would allow for some degree of choosing elements based on the enemy.

granted nothing has been said yet, if they're able to recognize the glaring problem about mages - and this change would address some of the issues that RDM BLM and SCH face, then I have my hopes up that they'll make revolutionary changes to jobs like SMN to follow.

the /DRK thing sounds awesome too. now i can't wait for the SoA/Matsui era to roll in

[Ophannus]

So overall, most spells are seeing less MP, faster cast, lower reduction and increased power(by a lot). Seems like Fire/Ice/Thunder will still be stronger but only slightly but in return, their MP cost, cast, recast are all increasing ever so slightly, which is fine by me since they're getting a damage buff. Geez INT looks like it's making a huge mothafuckin impact on Earth/Water/Wind magic.

[Byrthnoth]

It is about a 30% damage increase at reasonable dint levels for tier 4 magic. Tier 1 will be more efficient, but you can cap casting time for tier 4s so I would not use it unless I had to. With Manasa, tier 1s might be free though.