Dev Tracker: Discussion (Old)

[Obsidian]

Any one-handed buff is likely to have a huge impact on MNK. Me likey.

[Slycer]

In case anyone was following the dev tracker and saw all the Mocchi posts overnight, there really isn't anything relevant or worth translating in any of them that applies to non-JP audiences.

[NynJa]

As someone who prinarily uses 1h jobs, this pleases me greatly

[Loziel]

My Mnk friend just pointed out that counterstance is going to be a deathwish though if those defence changes go through lol

[Byrthnoth]

Naw, it actually won't change anything unless they raise the cap on Monster Attack / Your Defense ratio. This ratio is already capped when you use Counterstance, so even if defense "matters more" in the sense that it reduces damage more effectively, the damage that you take with Counterstance on now would not be affected.

[Slycer]

Naw, it actually won't change anything unless they raise the cap on Monster Attack / Your Defense ratio.

That's exactly what he says he wants to do, in both directions

We have received a lot of feedback that there are really very few benefits of increasing defense, and to increase those benefits. For the so-called attack/defense ratio, in the higher ranges where the meaning of this is reduced, I would like that meaning to be retained.

Then he goes on to say that he wants abiltiies like Last Resort and Berserk to make you take more damage, in addition to ones like Defender working better to mitigate damage. The only way I can read this is that he wants to eliminate or significantly raise the cap.

[Jem]

Don't really like the LR change but basically for selfish reasons. It isn't a direct nerf for DRK but it's certainly going to send us back down the pecking order. Ragna will still be desirable I guess but Apoc already can't keep up with some jobs without them getting an indirect buff. Ah well, like I said purely selfish reasons.

I don't have a one handed job but nice to see they'll be getting buffed too. Always been unfair that they have been handicapped in the same way 2 handers were shafted back in the day too.

[NynJa]

lack of considering ADL adjustment still upsets me, is "were going to limits its range of attacks to 20' instead of 35'" so gamebreaking?

The balancing of the nukes is a nice touch, that should have been there from the start.

[Byrthnoth]

He said he'd be increasing the benefits of raising defense, not the penalty for having low defense. He can do this by just pushing the damage taken curve around and increase the slope at higher Ratio values without changing the maximum damage taken. Things attacking counterstanced Monks already have maxed out Ratio, so as long as he doesn't increase the maximum damage things can do per hit (which would cause pretty dramatic changes), they won't necessarily take any more damage after the patch.

[Slycer]

lack of considering ADL adjustment still upsets me, is "were going to limits its range of attacks to 20' instead of 35'" so gamebreaking?

The balancing of the nukes is a nice touch, that should have been there from the start.

I think Matsui already specifically said in the past that they were NOT going to update ADL, didn't he?

[NynJa]

Things can always change?

[Obsidian]

That's exactly what he says he wants to do, in both directions



Then he goes on to say that he wants abiltiies like Last Resort and Berserk to make you take more damage, in addition to ones like Defender working better to mitigate damage. The only way I can read this is that he wants to eliminate or significantly raise the cap.

I don't know much about the current way that defense relates to attack (other than it's worthless on anything higher level than you), but could they not tweak that relationship without messing with the floor?

[Ophannus]

He said ADL won't be updated since its used to upgrade relics, there ought to be a risk/luck factor. In a way I do agree with him, even without PD, most groups usually end up holding back on ADL until he splits, in fact most good alliances get him down to ~50% or so just from meleeing without using any WS in about 20 seconds, it's just the first TP move after the split that makes or breaks the group but if you have a RDM CS stunning or a shocksquall rotation, its not so bad. Hell after the update, a single SMN can Astral Conduit+Shocksquall spam and keep the group virtually safe.

[Slycer]

Things can always change?

I guess. Was pretty recent, though, I think (I don't really remember when it was but it had to be pretty recently).

[Jem]

Oh, meant to say in my earlier post too. People talking about subbing DRK on 1 handers, don't get your hopes up and 100% expect it to translate. At the moment Desperate Blows only grants the JA Haste to 2 handed weapons. Obviously no guarantee it will stay that way but no guarantee they will change it either.

[fantasticdan]

If it stayed exclusive to 2 handed weapons, would any jobs sub it besides sam?

[Selamis]

I can't see anything other than sam. Maybe pld, if you were fucking around with friends and using a great sword and war would lose too much from dropping /sam so yeah. Maybe drg, dunno though, don't play that one so not sure how much they depend on /sam or /war.

[Ophannus]

Not talking about Desperate Blows. The translations say that the 15% will go to Last Resort and DB will enhance LR further up to +10% on top of LR's base 15%. Since LR states nothing about 2h in its description I think it will work for anyone. It might be useful on DRG in rare situations but keep in mind DRG has no native attack OR defensive abilities so /SAM really fills in largely what we're missing sans attack buffs. /WAR and /SAM are both appealing to DRG because DRG needs defense but we also need attack, unfortunately, unlike WAR, SAM and DRK, DRG cannot acquire both high attack and defense while maintaing a viable X-hit build. WAR/SAM SAM/WAR and DRK/SAM get the best of both universes because the main job either has high attack or high TP gain/defense and the sub fills in the gabs. DRG has neither high attack nor defense abilities/TP abilities so we have to choose between high attack with /WAR from berserk or faster attacks/defense/tp gain with SAM. If DRG was given an Attack buff, we could throw /WAR our and be up there with the other 2h jobs but alas in any case /DRK gives us no seigan/third eye and Last Resort isn't fulltime while Hasso is.

[Motenten]

Putting together various interesting ratios.

Damage/MP               Dark Arts               Damage/Sec (50%FC/30%Rc)        Arts+Seidr  MP Cost         Damage/MP
I       Int+0   Int+100 Int+0   Int+100         I       Int+0   Int+100         I           Int+0   Int+100 Int+0   Int+100

Stone   2.500   40.000  2.500   40.000          Stone   3.077   49.231          Stone       4       1       2.500   160.000
Water   2.500   16.500  2.778   18.333          Water   7.692   50.769          Water       9       6       2.778   27.500
Aero    2.500   10.625  2.667   11.333          Aero    12.308  52.308          Aero        15      12      2.667   14.167
Fire    2.500   7.955   2.750   8.750           Fire    16.923  53.846          Fire        19      17      2.895   10.294
Blizz   2.500   6.429   2.692   6.923           Blizz   21.538  55.385          Blizz       25      23      2.800   7.826
Thunder 2.500   5.441   2.742   5.968           Thunder 26.154  56.923          Thunder     30      28      2.833   6.607

II                                              II                              II

Stone   2.778   9.722   3.030   10.606          Stone   20.202  70.707          Stone       31      26      3.226   13.462
Water   2.791   8.256   3.077   9.103           Water   24.242  71.717          Water       37      32      3.243   11.094
Aero    2.745   7.059   3.043   7.826           Aero    28.283  72.727          Aero        44      39      3.182   9.231
Fire    2.667   6.083   2.963   6.759           Fire    32.323  73.737          Fire        51      47      3.137   7.766
Blizz   2.647   5.441   2.903   5.968           Blizz   36.364  74.747          Blizz       59      55      3.051   6.727
Thunder 2.597   4.870   2.857   5.357           Thunder 40.404  75.758          Thunder     66      63      3.030   5.952

III                                             III                             III

Stone   3.125   8.594   3.448   9.483           Stone   16.667  45.833          Stone       54      47      3.704   11.702
Water   3.067   7.467   3.382   8.235           Water   19.167  46.667          Water       64      57      3.594   9.825
Aero    2.955   6.477   3.250   7.125           Aero    21.667  47.500          Aero        75      69      3.467   8.261
Fire    2.871   5.743   3.187   6.374           Fire    24.167  48.333          Fire        86      80      3.372   7.250
Blizz   2.783   5.130   3.077   5.673           Blizz   26.667  49.167          Blizz       98      93      3.265   6.344
Thunder 2.713   4.651   2.991   5.128           Thunder 29.167  50.000          Thunder     110     105     3.182   5.714

IV                                              IV                              IV

Stone   3.571   7.589   3.960   8.416           Stone   16.667  35.417          Stone       93      84      4.301   10.119
Water   3.411   6.705   3.761   7.393           Water   18.333  36.042          Water       109     100     4.037   8.650
Aero    3.243   5.946   3.582   6.567           Aero    20.000  36.667          Aero        125     117     3.840   7.521
Fire    3.077   5.296   3.399   5.850           Fire    21.667  37.292          Fire        143     136     3.636   6.581
Blizz   2.947   4.789   3.275   5.322           Blizz   23.333  37.917          Blizz       160     153     3.500   5.948
Thunder 2.817   4.343   3.125   4.818           Thunder 25.000  38.542          Thunder     180     174     3.333   5.316

V                                               V                               V

Stone   4.167   7.692   4.610   8.511           Stone   17.808  32.877          Stone       128     117     5.078   10.256
Water   3.846   6.703   4.268   7.439           Water   19.178  33.425          Water       150     140     4.667   8.714
Aero    3.571   5.905   3.968   6.561           Aero    20.548  33.973          Aero        174     165     4.310   7.515
Fire    3.333   5.250   3.704   5.833           Fire    21.918  34.521          Fire        200     191     4.000   6.597
Blizz   3.125   4.706   3.469   5.224           Blizz   23.288  35.068          Blizz       228     220     3.728   5.818
Thunder 2.941   4.248   3.261   4.710           Thunder 24.658  35.616          Thunder     258     250     3.488   5.200

Looks like tier 2's are likely the best for overall spammable damage, though alternating a couple tier 3's (or Stone II/Stone III) would also do pretty well. They do about twice the damage of tier 1s, but can be cast just as fast; Stone II as the obvious for most MP efficient of those.

Seidr Cote (combined with Dark Arts, here) provides a decent improvement in MP efficiency. Coincidentally, Stone II seems to get the most benefit from it. Due to the progression of damage across the elements, the Stone line will always gain more from the Seidr as dInt increases, so as you add in MAB the efficiency should continue to skew in Stone's favor.

Also, it doesn't look like any spell will ever reach 0 cost, but Stone, Water, and maybe Aero could effectively be free given 1 tick of refresh per spell cast.

[fantasticdan]

Will the elemental changes skew magian vs chatoyant at all?