Dev Tracker: Discussion (Old)

[Byrthnoth]

It's such a huge gain for solo/lowman DNC that I'm afraid it's not going to be real.

Like, +50% DPS for a DNC with Haste.

[Darkmagi]

mnk/drk sounds fairly broken, especially since I generally do most things on mnk without a brd. Sure hope it isn't restricted to 2handers lol.

[Darkmagi]

I'm mostly excited for the ability to not swing retardedly slow on sam without a brd.

[Prothescar]

The DEF change could be fairly significant for BLU as silly as it sounds.

[arus2001]

Yeah, depending on what they do, BLU could wind up a secondary or tertiary tank job. But as with tanking in general, enmity generation/retention could be its biggest flaw. At the very least, BLU magic doesn't suffer from Defender.

[Prothescar]

BLU has no issue whatsoever with enmity generation. Damage output and spells cover for it easily. Biggest issue is going to be the horrible enmity system that I notice wasn't included in the post.


In Abyssea vs a THF I could see enmity retention being a problem for BLU, but other than that...

[Obsidian]

It'll be hilarious when they exclude H2H from the one-handed adjustment.

And by hilarious I mean soul-crushing.

[Byrthnoth]

Monk DPS would increase by about 1/3 during Last Resort (assuming only Haste for buffs) but they'd lose 10% Double Attack so it's probably safer to call it a 25% increase in DPS.

Dancer goes from 50% Haste and 48% DW to 65% Haste and 42% DW (Skadi body+Suppa? Maybe Patentia + Thaumas body + Suppa or something, remains to be seen). This is a 30% increase in DPS. Additionally, we get to swap our gear around and lose 10% DA, which I benefit from very little due to Saber Dance/multi-attack gear and Mythic AM3. I'd call it a wash and say we'd gain about 30% damage from Last Resort.

Using Qilin (L110) in Motenten's spreadsheet, if I drop level correction to 0.025 (like ranged weapons) then my damage goes up by about 30%. It will only affect about 75% of my damage if it's mainhand only, so call it a 20% increase.

Therein lies the problem. They're giving us a major low-man buff boost (enough that pretty much no one would use 2H jobs for lowman stuff ever again) and a major alliance event boost. Damage +20% is only for 110 enemies. Things like Ig-Alima would be even more. Looking at my lulzy DNC parses, there's rarely more than a 20% gap between my damage and whoever the top DD is (typically a Ragnarok or Ukon). If this patch goes through and is as potent as I'm assuming, then it will pretty much make 1H jobs king. They're more durable. They're better lowman DDs. They're comparable alliance DDs. On one hand, I'd personally welcome the end of Fantasy Fantasy IIH, but I doubt that is SE's intent.

[Chamaan]

At the tail end of ToAU before I stopped caring about Blu I put together a pretty decent tank as a Blu/Pld. Was a silly fun side project using flash/jettatura/temp shift/Sentinel/Shield Bash to maintain high VE. Would depend on whatever they end up doing to the enmity system in general, but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

[Kincard]

It'll be hilarious when they exclude H2H from the one-handed adjustment.

And by hilarious I mean soul-crushing.

Doesn't MNK already do nearly as well as WAR and DRK VS low to mid level targets?

Will only getting /DRK be enough to push them into being competitive on high level targets?

[Prothescar]

BLU and MNK are within a fair margin on low to mid targets yes, assuming you mean low to mid... high... targets. Level correction changes, pending how they do it and to what extent, would be very good news for both job's relevancy in current endgame events. DNC should be up there too, THF, NIN and BST though... they're still pretty unfortunate.

[Byrthnoth]

No, Monk would gain very little from /DRK if they have Marches.

Verth Monk has (480+51=)531 base delay, so their delay cap is 106.2 Martial Arts traits drop this to a delay of 331, so they need 68% Haste to cap. Marches, Haste, and Gear are 68%, so additional Haste does nothing for them. This would purely be for lowman, and that's true for pretty much every 1H DD (except perhaps BLU).

To expand on this, BLU uses kind of a "pick your own adventure" version of Dual Wield because they can control how many spells they set. You don't want to set more than you need, because then your TP/hit suffers. If it ever becomes practical to reset spells every 3/2 minutes (like if SE makes sets that you can swap between), then BLU could make a "Last Resort Up" and "Last Resort Down" set and potentially gain from this even when getting capped magic Haste.

[Prothescar]

(except perhaps BLU).

It serves to lose quite a bit while gaining the extra haste in the exchange so it should be interesting, plan on simulating and mathing out DNC, MNK, and BLU later on to see how it evens out. Given that a BLU's delay is about the same as a MNK's all said and done, I don't expect anything substantial.

[Ophannus]

I'm all for a 1h boost but to be honest 2h jobs should be king. DNC, THF, NIN, BLU are too versatile to be the best DDs. Usually in MMOs, generalists are never the best DDs because they can heal/tank/debuff/buff/crowd control. It would be unfair if they made 1h jobs stronger than 2h since unlike DNC/NIN/BLU, a DRK/DRG/WAR can't really tank/buff/debuff. I know some of those *CAN TANK* but not without support, like a NIN and DNC can hold their own for ages but a SAM or DRK can only tank for as long as they're getting outside help via cures and such. Besides the 'vision' or 'point' behind those 1h jobs was not to be a major DD job but to be a support DD that can also facilitate party dynamics by messing with enmity, healing, buffing, tanks, debuffing etc. A DRG and WAR really can only deal raw damage and don't have as many tools or gimmicks to them.


Also I can't imagine them making the 1h buff for h2h since h2h is in its own category but they might adjust Footwork so that it follows 2h calculation since that was originally what Footwork was for, for fighting high level NMs I suppose.

[Toth]

Stop leaving PUP out >(

[Prothescar]

We don't know the extent of the adjustments yet. 1h needs attention because right now their "utility" is completely irrelevant, not a selling point at all. A too sizable increase would cause problems, yes, but something that allows the jobs to function effectively and be wanted in the endgame content arena while still providing other assets would be ideal.

[Prothescar]

Also byrth, that spell swap thing is intriguing and not entirely outside of the bounds of reality right now. It'd only be a few spells that need to be swapped, assuming you sort spells so theyre all next to each other it'd be 10 seconds at the very most that you're fiddling with menus. Largest issue would be losing access to cocoon, occultation, roar, etc. for 60s

[Selamis]

Monk DPS would increase by about 1/3 during Last Resort (assuming only Haste for buffs) but they'd lose 10% Double Attack so it's probably safer to call it a 25% increase in DPS.

Dancer goes from 50% Haste and 48% DW to 65% Haste and 42% DW (Skadi body+Suppa? Maybe Patentia + Thaumas body + Suppa or something, remains to be seen). This is a 30% increase in DPS. Additionally, we get to swap our gear around and lose 10% DA, which I benefit from very little due to Saber Dance/multi-attack gear and Mythic AM3. I'd call it a wash and say we'd gain about 30% damage from Last Resort.

Using Qilin (L110) in Motenten's spreadsheet, if I drop level correction to 0.025 (like ranged weapons) then my damage goes up by about 30%. It will only affect about 75% of my damage if it's mainhand only, so call it a 20% increase.

Therein lies the problem. They're giving us a major low-man buff boost (enough that pretty much no one would use 2H jobs for lowman stuff ever again) and a major alliance event boost. Damage +20% is only for 110 enemies. Things like Ig-Alima would be even more. Looking at my lulzy DNC parses, there's rarely more than a 20% gap between my damage and whoever the top DD is (typically a Ragnarok or Ukon). If this patch goes through and is as potent as I'm assuming, then it will pretty much make 1H jobs king. They're more durable. They're better lowman DDs. They're comparable alliance DDs. On one hand, I'd personally welcome the end of Fantasy Fantasy IIH, but I doubt that is SE's intent.

As a primary war and drk, eventhough I have mnk and pld too and would benefit from the 1h increase on those jobs, I would not be welcoming to any change that would knock 2h jobs off the pole as the "wreck everything in your path" jobs. I don't think 2h jobs should be replaced either as king of the mountain, and I don't think they will, I hope at least.

Not too mention for mnk in particular....hundred fists with souleater would be beyond broken and would have to be nerfed, not even taking into account of last resort. To give mnk/drk the boost in damage with last resort and then give them access to an unnerfed souleater would be king of the zergs...which I feel like SE is trying to get us away from.

[Byrthnoth]

Yeah, I just figured that in a buffed cap situation you wouldn't care much about casting physical spells or damage mitigation. If you drop your DW from 30% (trait+Suppa) to 10% (so you still have an offhand), your TP/hit would increase from 4.8 to 5.5. That's +15% TP gain. Not bad. If you pick up another trait with your spell swap, all the better. I'm sure there's a 3P way to imitate the signals sent from your computer to the server when you change spells and then automate it using Run and Autoexec (gainbuff/losebuff).

Re:Selamis - SE hasn't said anything about unnerfing /DRK Souleater or changing it in any way, so I don't think you have to worry about MNK/DRKs Souleater HFing things any more than before.

[Chamaan]

Here's a random thought. Think they'll adjust mob TP gain from getting hit with spells? If I remember right it's a flat 10% for every spell hit that lands (including multi-hit blu spells). If they're encouraging more frequent small nukes, this could be kind of a problem in small-group (3~ players) play.