Dev Tracker: Discussion (Old)

[Motenten]

Hmm. Haste on Last Resort actually complicates things a bit. With Berserk (and the attack from Last Resort, for that matter), the player has full control over the changing gear needs, but the haste on LR mixes up with buffs you and the rest of the party might be getting.

Looking at a theoretical mnk/drk setup.

Assuming Vere for weapon, min delay is 106, and that's reached at 696/1024 haste.

With capped gear haste + Haste, that's 406, and need 290 more to cap. Double Marches with +3 from instrument/gear gives 256; +4 gives 288.

Add in Last Resort (assuming 150/1024), and haste without Marches is 556, so you need 140 to cap. Victory March with +3 from instrument/gear gives 144.

So Last Resort completely obviates the second March while it's up, but it would be complicated to maintain that split due multiple people needing to coordinate over such things. It would be manageable if it was all setup up for a quick zerg (and doing March/Minuet is definitely a significantly better option when LR is up), but not for longer term use.

Instead the mnk would need to look into reducing gear haste. Assuming Last Resort, Haste + 2x Marches, that's 556 to 588 haste, leaving you needing just 108-140 in gear. It's actually difficult to get haste that low on mnk.

Thaumas body (4%), Usu+1 head (5%), Usu+1 or Tantra legs (6%, not counting Usu bonus), and you're capped for the +3 instrument. After that you can do things like Tantra feet, Windbuffet belt, Usu+1 hands and such. Of course you really get very little out of swapping haste gear to other stuff; a few points of DA/TA/QA and whatnot.


Playing around in the spreadsheet, for low buff situations (no brd) drk is significantly ahead when LR is up compared to Berserk, while war is slightly ahead when LR/Berserk are down.

In high buff situations, double March puts /war far ahead of double March /drk, and moderately ahead of March/Min /drk, given LR/Berserk are up. Skewed further in /war's favor when they're down.

So /war would still be king in high end stuff (unless Soul Eater comes into play), while /drk would be better in low-man stuff.


~ took too long to write that up.. Byrth put together very similar conclusions.

[Obsidian]

As a primary war and drk, eventhough I have mnk and pld too and would benefit from the 1h increase on those jobs, I would not be welcoming to any change that would knock 2h jobs off the pole as the "wreck everything in your path" jobs. I don't think 2h jobs should be replaced either as king of the mountain, and I don't think they will, I hope at least.

Not too mention for mnk in particular....hundred fists with souleater would be beyond broken and would have to be nerfed, not even taking into account of last resort. To give mnk/drk the boost in damage with last resort and then give them access to an unnerfed souleater would be king of the zergs...which I feel like SE is trying to get us away from.

Soul Eater is already nerfed from /DRK, you only get 5% even though you lose 10% per punch.

I'm curious how much the one-handed adjustment would benefit MNK. Of all the one-handed DDs, I think MNK definitely deserves a bump, because it lacks the versatility of jobs like BLU and DNC. It's effectively a two-handed DD without any of the benefits of being two-handed. H2H has comparable delay to most two-handed weapons, but it doesn't benefit from Seigan/Hasso/Third Eye, it last lower comparative base damage, gets slapped by level correction, and doesn't get the extra accuracy from DEX that two-handed jobs do.

[Slycer]

Still mulling over the INT/MAB ratio changes, the necessary swaps that I'd see off the bat from current ideal to new ideal would be:

MAB+2 ammo -> Ombre Tathlum
MAB+6 earring -> Sortiarius Earring
Strendu Ring -> INT+7 Ring
Anything but Othila -> Wanion Belt (even Wanion would be better than Othila for Fire and below and I generally ignore Maniacus because m.acc-10 is a kick in the balls)

I think the rest of the gear will be consistent with the current best stuff (Nares head/hands, Saevus, Novio, Morri+1 body/feet, Akasha Chaps)

[Selamis]

Soul Eater is already nerfed from /DRK, you only get 5% even though you lose 10% per punch.

I'm curious how much the one-handed adjustment would benefit MNK. Of all the one-handed DDs, I think MNK definitely deserves a bump, because it lacks the versatility of jobs like BLU and DNC. It's effectively a two-handed DD without any of the benefits of being two-handed. H2H has comparable delay to most two-handed weapons, but it doesn't benefit from Seigan/Hasso/Third Eye, it last lower comparative base damage, gets slapped by level correction, and doesn't get the extra accuracy from DEX that two-handed jobs do.

All this time I was unaware of that lol, since I never have had a reason to sub drk before, except for back at 75 cap when I would go whm/drk to Cerberus and Khimaira and be part of my linkshell's stun rotation since at the time /blm didn't offer access to stun. themoreyouknow.jpg

[Byrthnoth]

DNC/DRK single wielding Terpsichore at capped magic Haste would need ~13% Haste in gear to cap delay during Last Resort (and would be at 78.75% Haste without Last Resort). A set like this during LR:

Terpsichore/Airy/____/Potestas
Thaumas/Rancor/Ghillie+1/Brutal
Thaumas/Skadi+1/Epona's/Rajas
Atheling/Windbuffet/Thaumas/Thaumas

Might pull ahead of more traditional builds?

(The hidden bonus is that your TP/hit goes up a bit and you get to use your highest DPS weapon for 100% of your swings).

[Damane]

Here's a random thought. Think they'll adjust mob TP gain from getting hit with spells? If I remember right it's a flat 10% for every spell hit that lands (including multi-hit blu spells). If they're encouraging more frequent small nukes, this could be kind of a problem in small-group (3~ players) play.

I think the consensus is that lower tier spells should be used for zergs (like potent DoT) where TP feed wont matter anyway, and the higher tier spells would be used for fights where you dont want to encourage TP feed.

[Ophannus]

since mnk has almost double a drk's hp, the 5% thing isnt that bad. 5% of a mnk's hp is more or less 10% of a drk's, thereabout.

[Kincard]

MNK/DRK SP2 + Soul eater + HF? (not that that wasn't already discussed before this dev post came out)

[Taint]

since mnk has almost double a drk's hp, the 5% thing isnt that bad. 5% of a mnk's hp is more or less 10% of a drk's, thereabout.

What? MNK doesn't have anywhere near double DRKs HP.

[Byrthnoth]

And you only lose 8.5% HP/hit because of Stalwart Soul.

[Motenten]

since mnk has almost double a drk's hp, the 5% thing isnt that bad. 5% of a mnk's hp is more or less 10% of a drk's, thereabout.

A naked hume mnk/drk has about 26% more HP than a naked hume drk/sam.

edit: actually, 23% once merits are added in.

edit 2:
Or, to put it in scale (before gear, and only accounting for the first hit from capped HP):

Drk/sam would do +164 damage per hit for a cost of 82 HP
Mnk/drk would do +101 damage per hit for a cost of 172 HP

[Ophannus]

Thought most MNKs these days were hovering close to 2700+ whereas DRKs are around 1400-1500 or so.

[NynJa]

Matanca Harness Rare Ex [Body] All Races
DEF:77 HP+8% STR+15 DEX+15 VIT+15 Attack+22 Haste+3%
LV 99 MNK SAM NIN PUP

Mel. Gaiters +2 90 [Feet] All Races
DEF:20 HP+5% STR+7 DEX+7 Increases "Counter" attack Enhances "Counterstance" effect
LV 90 MNK

Mel. Gloves +2 90 [Hands] All Races
DEF:20 HP+4% Accuracy+21 Attack+21 "Subtle Blow"+6 Enhances "Chakra" effect III
LV 90 MNK

Ganesha's Mask 90 [Head] All Races
DEF:4 HP+4% Attack+4% Haste+4%
LV 90 MNK THF DRK BST SAM DRG DNC
OR (depends of you prefer the Haste or extra HP)
Mel. Crown +2 90 [Head] All Races
DEF:30 HP+6% STR+7 VIT+7 "Subtle Blow"+7 Enmity-5
LV 90 MNK

Mel. Hose +2 90 [Legs] All Races
DEF:40 HP+7% DEX+7 AGI+7 "Kick Attacks"+7 "Subtle Blow"+7
LV 90 MNK

How would that do? lol

[Warusha]

How would BLM/DRK fair meleeing + nuking in range on mid/high level enemies with E/M/R? I am super excited for the changes

[Byrthnoth]

A Galkan MNK/DNC wearing all that gear would have almost 3000HP (150 damage, -255 HP per hit) with full HP merits and Galkan DRK/MNK with "Enhances Souleater" has 1953 HP (234 damage, -95 HP/hit). That said, SE has proposed no changes to Souleater or Hundred Fists. You could go use Souleater + Hundred Fists today if you wanted to.

[NynJa]

The biggest problem would be keeping that HP up

[Prothescar]

BLU doesn't seem to benefit very much at all from /DRK. Assuming you swap out spells properly it's a ~1% at best lead over /WAR with high buffs, and that's before considering the loss of things like Triumphant Roar, so a loss overall.

With just natural BLU conventions (haste spell, dw, etc) it's got about a 10% lead over /WAR, no need to swap spells here so no loss of spell power.
.

[Chocobunnies]

I tried mnk/drk once way back at 75 cap for sag.... Soul Eater + Asuran Fists = pretty fast d3 lol

[Motenten]

@NynJa:

No claim that this is anywhere near optimal, and I'm not (much) accounting for haste and whatnot, but if you want to toss in gear for the max HP thing...

Race: Hume

Mnk:
Ammo: Fenrir's Stone, +30
Head: Ganesha's Mask, +4%
Neck: Lavalier+1, +60
Ears: Bloodgem, +35; Bloodbead, +25
Body: Matanca Harness, +8%
Hands: Melee+2, +4%
Rings: Meridian, +90; Eihwaz, +70
Back: Prodigious Mantle, +80
Waist: will assume haste
Legs: Melee+2, +7%
Feet: Melee+2, +5%

Total: 1878 + 150 + 390 = 2418 * 1.28 = 3095


Drk:
Ammo: Egoist's Tathlum, +45
Head: Ares+1, +4%
Neck: Lavalier+1, +60
Ears: Bloodgem, +35; Cassie, +50
Body: Kumarbi, +100; or Ares, +5%
Hands: Ares+1, +3%
Rings: Meridian, +90; Moliones's, SE effect
Back: Strendu Mantle, +110
Waist: will assume haste
Legs: Ares+1, +4%
Feet: Ares+1, +3%

Total (Kumarbi body): 1493 + 150 + 490 = 2133 * 1.14 = 2431
Total (Ares body): 1493 + 150 + 390 = 2033 * 1.19 = 2419


So mnk is 27% ahead of drk in raw HP.

Drk/sam would do +291 damage on the first hit for a cost of 121 HP
Mnk/drk would do +154 damage on the first hit for a cost of 263 HP

[Byrthnoth]

Official post is up: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...863#post392863